TimLee
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:19 pm

Arlington wrote:... and I have heard good things happened to battery tech as 2013 production ramped up in the USA, so I'm hoping that my battery is from after some sort of generational change (for the better). ...

The tooth fairy was a wonderful thing to believe in for a while too.

I hope you are right, but there has not been much hard data to back up that claim.

Nissan said the heat resistant battery arrived with USA model year 2015.
They would not even sell replacements till it was available.
Why does everyone want to not believe them and start assuming they started using it a year and a half earlier.

Data :?: :o

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

91040
Posts: 959
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 06 May 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:35 pm

If memory serves…

2011MY 24kWh battery.
Later 2011MY 24kWh battery with heater (part of the cold package).
2013MY 24kWh battery with minor chemical composition change.
2015MY 24kWh battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.

There are 4 temperature sensors on the batteries for MY2011& 2012. Three temperature sensors starting with MY2013.

Arlington wrote:My 2013 S was manufactured in August 2013 and has only 3 sensors showing in LeafSpy, and I have heard good things happened to battery tech as 2013 production ramped up in the USA, so I'm hoping that my battery is from after some sort of generational change (for the better). It sounds like there have been 3 generations of battery, and I'd like to collect the definitive "how to tell what battery you have" in one place.

Seems like the Generations of battery ID'd so far are (where batteries from any "whole" generation are interchangeable):
Gen 1.0 25kWh Japan 2011/2012/Early 2013: 4 temp sensors in Leaf Spy
Gen 1.5 25kwh USA Fall 2013 "Early Lizard?"...3 temp sensors in Leaf Spy (?)
Gen 2.0 30kWh 2016

I've searched and searched this forum for "how tell lizard" and I can't find any reference to
- Why it is called Lizard
- If there are any visual differences you can see by peeking under your car (can you see the mounting bracket differences?)
- If there is agreement on the meaning of 3 temp sensors (Leaf Spy says I have sensors 1, 2, and 4)
- When the VIN number or production-month breaks are for the USA transition in battery types (I'm 414434 / August)
1st Capacity Bar loss 30k mi 16.25mo 2nd- 49k mi 25.5mo 51.5Ah
3rd- 73k mi 36.5mo 46.9Ah 71% SOH 50.9Hx 4th- 86.5k mi 43mo 42.61Ah 64% SOH 43.79Hx
5th- 101k mi 50.5mo 38.38Ah 58% SOH 37.02Hx Replaced Battery 9/28/15 104.2k mi 36.13Ah

Flyct
Posts: 187
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:04 am
Delivery Date: 02 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 307113
Location: Bradenton, Florida, US

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:34 am

CarFax??

I believe most if not all Nissan dealers report to Carfax. If so then I would suspect that a Carfax report should show battery replacement. It just might not be too clear if it's the 12v or HV battery.

One of the things I like that Lexus has is an owners site, drivers.lexus.com. You register, input any vin and you can view details of every service visit and resolution. It's a great source when buying a pre-owned Lexus.
2015 Pearl White Leaf SL with Premium (Bose) package
2015 Lexus RX450h Hybrid SUV
2016 Ford F-150 Super Crew
Blissfully Retired and loving it!

Evoforce
Posts: 779
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:17 pm

My 2011 Leaf with lizard battery shows four temperature bars.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

Arlington
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:47 am
Delivery Date: 29 Oct 2015
Leaf Number: 414434

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:59 am

TimLee wrote:
Arlington wrote:... and I have heard good things happened to battery tech as 2013 production ramped up in the USA, so I'm hoping that my battery is from after some sort of generational change (for the better). ...

The tooth fairy was a wonderful thing to believe in for a while too.

I hope you are right, but there has not been much hard data to back up that claim.

Nissan said the heat resistant battery arrived with USA model year 2015.
They would not even sell replacements till it was available.
Why does everyone want to not believe them and start assuming they started using it a year and a half earlier.

I'm going to keep digging, not just waiving off well-documented changes as tooth fairy.
This is the first clue: in 2013, the casing on battery modules went from 2011/2012 "solid box":
Image
to a new casing with a split all the way around:
Image
(see this 2014 article on the battery replacement program that shows a split-casing module, and this pair of "2013" battery pack teardown articles from April and September 2015)

Again, we're looking for generational changes of the sort that go with "continuous improvement" that Japan is famous for, especially when confronted with rapidly-emerging tech (like batteries) and vociferous feedback (heater-off switch)

Some 1.x to 1.x++ changes will be small (like number of sensors and mounting bracket positions) and some will be large (like lizard's leap in heat-resistance) and some will be true generational changes (I'd call 30kWh the first "2.0" )

A small "continuous improvement" change in battery CONSTRUCTION in 2013 is a now a proven fact, and that 2013's changes might have been a small continuous improvement in battery DURABILITY isn't ruled out by the fact that there is said to have been a big change in chemistry for 2015 (big enough to hold up production) and a discontinuous "2.0" kind of change in internal wiring to support 30kWh.

I think a change in battery modules in 2013 (small enough to *not* hold up production), is particularly of the kind that you might introduce in the course of setting up the Smyrna TN battery production assembly line and organizing a new supply chain.

So far, my guess is that the switch from a solid to a split module casing in 2013 was a "winner" improvement, which is why it is part of acknowledged 2014/2015 "Lizard" production of "Gen 1.5" replacements for failed Gen 1.0/1.1 batteries and is why 2013 owners seem happier with battery durability. Maybe they also knew that a split casing would move heat around differently and so changed the sensor setup.
91040 wrote:If memory serves…
2011MY 24kWh battery.
Later 2011MY 24kWh battery with heater (part of the cold package).
2013MY 24kWh battery with minor chemical composition change.
2015MY 24kWh battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.

There are 4 temperature sensors on the batteries for MY2011& 2012. Three temperature sensors starting with MY2013.

In the spirit of continuous improvement, I'm re-working my generations list as follows:
Gen YearMY What's New
1.0 2011MY (Launch 25kWh battery)
1.1 2011MY battery with heater (part of the cold package).
1.3 2013MY USA-assembled battery changes*
1.5 2015MY battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.
1.x (possible further improvements in Lizard / 2016 S / Future Gen 1.x replacement supplies)

2.0 2016MY 30kWh Batteries

* Known generational changes during switch to Smyrna battery production in Spring 2013 that would appear in 2013MY production by July or August:
1) Known reduction in number of temp sensors from "1,2,3,4" to "1,2,4" (perhaps the 2013's only "ask" for 3, even if the pack has 4)
2) 2nd HV Connection on the front of the pack that goes to the cabin heater
3) Exterior casing changes: fewer simpler bolts & seal change (see this teardown)
4) Change in battery module casing & venting (allowing greater airflow?) (see this teardown)

So I look at the list, above, of known changes for USA 2013MY and confidently declare gen 1.3 for MY13. (there may never be a 1.2 or 1.4 "released" so let's go with 1.3 = '13 cause it is an easy mnemonic

Is Gen 1.3 really "better" or "more durable"? That seems like a better hypothesis than to just assume they were cost cutting or accommodating equal-or-worse US domestic suppliers in their changes.

Sure, some of those 2013 changes may be purely "cosmetic" and driven by what kind of deal Nissan could cut with USA parts suppliers (maybe USA bolts are expensive and seals are cheap), but all speak to a Nissan engineer, somewhere, having been given a list of redesign items. Equal-or-better seems like the more "normal" set of design and sourcing changes you'd make.

I find the case that 2013 saw better venting & convective temperature management within/between the battery modules to be very compelling because we see a change (to a split case) and have a good hypothesis as to why it was made (to allow heat to move/moderate better). It may be that 2013 didn't see a chemistry change at all, but rather just this change to better manage heat making it *look* like the chemistry changed.

Frankly, Given all the known/visible changes for 2013 (see #1, 2, 3, 4, above) it seems at least a 50% chance that they tweaked the actual chemistry, or 50% that the left chemistry unchanged in 2013 but knew that a new 4-cell casing could better dissipate heat.

ClarD
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 8:17 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Apr 2016

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Wed May 24, 2017 10:15 am

Evoforce wrote:My 2011 Leaf with lizard battery shows four temperature bars.


If you have a 2011, with a replacement battery, could you check the serial number of the battery with LeafSpy?

In LeafSpy, Settings, Enable the Service Screen.
That gives you a fifth screen, temporarily.
Read ECU versions shows the Battery Serial Number near the bottom.
Screenshot that. It isn't logged.
After you do that, the SOH screen 1 will toggle between VIN and Battery Serial Number.
My 2013, built 4/17/2013, has Battery Serial Number 230SM1134F000591

This might be a way of spotting the lizard battery. It might be a way to tell that a battery had been replaced.

Bilbobaker
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:50 am
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2017

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Mon May 14, 2018 1:47 am

I wonder if my used Nissan leaf 2013 has had the battery changed.
I now have 98670 miles on it and its still at 10 bars.
Leaf spy says 16.3 kwh when fully charged.
I average 4.3 miles per kwh.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8643
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Mon May 14, 2018 2:34 am

In the spirit of continuous improvement, I'm re-working my generations list as follows:
Gen YearMY What's New
1.0 2011MY (Launch 25kWh battery)
1.1 2011MY battery with heater (part of the cold package).
1.3 2013MY USA-assembled battery changes*
1.5 2015MY battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.
1.x (possible further improvements in Lizard / 2016 S / Future Gen 1.x replacement supplies)

2.0 2016MY 30kWh Batteries

* Known generational changes during switch to Smyrna battery production in Spring 2013 that would appear in 2013MY production by July or August:
1) Known reduction in number of temp sensors from "1,2,3,4" to "1,2,4" (perhaps the 2013's only "ask" for 3, even if the pack has 4)
2) 2nd HV Connection on the front of the pack that goes to the cabin heater
3) Exterior casing changes: fewer simpler bolts & seal change (see this teardown)
4) Change in battery module casing & venting (allowing greater airflow?) (see this teardown)

So I look at the list, above, of known changes for USA 2013MY and confidently declare gen 1.3 for MY13. (there may never be a 1.2 or 1.4 "released" so let's go with 1.3 = '13 cause it is an easy mnemonic


I haven't been following this thread, but I have been following the 'generational' changes in the batteries. I was the first person at this site to notice that there was a change in battery chemistry in April (not January) of 2013. Since AFAIK the battery case was changed with the beginning of production in Smyrna in January of 2013, it appears almost certain that the change that mattered was to the composition of the electrolyte/cathode/anode inside the case, beginning in April of 2013, and had little or nothing to do with the case design. This conclusion has held up very well over the last several years, with 2013 cars built before April showing the same pattern of degradation as the 2011-2012 Leafs, even with the new case, and cars built from April on proving much more resistant to time-related degradation. Resistance to heat related degradation is less pronounced, but still noticeable - much like the "Lizard" pack. I've been calling the first version of the pack the "Canary Pack" because of its vulnerability, and have recently named the intermediate, pre-Lizard pack the "Wolf Pack" because it's much tougher, but still doesn't withstand sustained heat very well. I did that because people were starting to refer to 4/2013-2014 packs as "Lizard" packs, and there is no evidence that this is actually the case, even though they seem almost as good as the 2015 packs.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
Posts: 1736
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Mon May 14, 2018 12:18 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
In the spirit of continuous improvement, I'm re-working my generations list as follows:
Gen YearMY What's New
1.0 2011MY (Launch 25kWh battery)
1.1 2011MY battery with heater (part of the cold package).
1.3 2013MY USA-assembled battery changes*
1.5 2015MY battery with a more heat resistant chemistry. Dubbed the lizard battery for that reason.
1.x (possible further improvements in Lizard / 2016 S / Future Gen 1.x replacement supplies)

2.0 2016MY 30kWh Batteries

* Known generational changes during switch to Smyrna battery production in Spring 2013 that would appear in 2013MY production by July or August:
1) Known reduction in number of temp sensors from "1,2,3,4" to "1,2,4" (perhaps the 2013's only "ask" for 3, even if the pack has 4)
2) 2nd HV Connection on the front of the pack that goes to the cabin heater
3) Exterior casing changes: fewer simpler bolts & seal change (see this teardown)
4) Change in battery module casing & venting (allowing greater airflow?) (see this teardown)

So I look at the list, above, of known changes for USA 2013MY and confidently declare gen 1.3 for MY13. (there may never be a 1.2 or 1.4 "released" so let's go with 1.3 = '13 cause it is an easy mnemonic


I haven't been following this thread, but I have been following the 'generational' changes in the batteries. I was the first person at this site to notice that there was a change in battery chemistry in April (not January) of 2013. Since AFAIK the battery case was changed with the beginning of production in Smyrna in January of 2013, it appears almost certain that the change that mattered was to the composition of the electrolyte/cathode/anode inside the case, beginning in April of 2013, and had little or nothing to do with the case design. This conclusion has held up very well over the last several years, with 2013 cars built before April showing the same pattern of degradation as the 2011-2012 Leafs, even with the new case, and cars built from April on proving much more resistant to time-related degradation. Resistance to heat related degradation is less pronounced, but still noticeable - much like the "Lizard" pack. I've been calling the first version of the pack the "Canary Pack" because of its vulnerability, and have recently named the intermediate, pre-Lizard pack the "Wolf Pack" because it's much tougher, but still doesn't withstand sustained heat very well. I did that because people were starting to refer to 4/2013-2014 packs as "Lizard" packs, and there is no evidence that this is actually the case, even though they seem almost as good as the 2015 packs.


Do data exist that indicate a significance difference between the 2013 (Wolf Pack) and the 2015 (Lizard) battery degradation? If so, where're
the data to corroborate that?
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 64K miles, 49 Ahrs, 5.1 miles/kWh (average), L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F, min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8643
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: How To Tell If Battery Pack Has Been Replaced?

Mon May 14, 2018 1:41 pm

Do data exist that indicate a significance difference between the 2013 (Wolf Pack) and the 2015 (Lizard) battery degradation? If so, where're
the data to corroborate that?


Nothing hard, but if you look in the topics about degradation, I believe that you'll find that the Wolf packs do a bit worse in climates like Phoenix than does the Lizard pack. The Wolf pack, as I recall, is more likely to lose multiple bars in really hot areas than is the Lizard pack.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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