powersurge
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:50 am

To that poster in Arizona... DO not buy a Leaf.... Or any EV.

I can see no reason other than impulsive thinking, to buy a Leaf that lives in that type of heat. Every day the car is exposed, it will deteriorate, and if you only occasionally drive, it is FOOLISH to have any EV.

Buy a regular car and drive it for 10-20 years trouble free.

Reddy
Posts: 1465
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:09 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 006828
Location: Pasco, WA

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:22 pm

emilyuna wrote:Hi everyone! This forum seems great and I’ve learned a lot already! This topic seems similar to my conundrum, so I thought I’d start here for a new version of this comparison.

To avoid tl;dr, here’s the basic question: Considering that I live in Tucson, have light driving needs, and want to buy a used Leaf, which sounds better: a 2011 with QC (so presumably a 2011 SL because of the QC) and with a battery replaced in 2017 for $6-7,000 (such as this one https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/d/2011-nissan-leaf-with-new/6420700294.html), or a 2015 S with QC and 12 bars for $11-12,000 (such as this onehttp://www.redrockautoaz.com/detail-2015-nissan-leaf-4dr_hatchback_s-used-17045022.html)?

For those interested in the long version: My beloved 2002 Subaru Impreza was recently totaled while parked at my house because a rabbit chewed through a ton of the engine wires. The car only had 160,000 miles! I was going to drive it for another 5-10 years! This should get you in the mindset of how I think about cars. I wasn’t planning on buying a new car now, so the difference of $5-6,000 in the cost of a used Leaf is significant.

I don’t have a daily driving commute (I bike and sometimes take the bus if it’s too hot), and I live in a central area of town where most things are very close by. Even when I had a car I frequently did grocery runs on my bike. I’m on the borderline for needing a car. However, I would like to have a car that would enable me to do errands in town quickly and with more hauling capacity than I have on my bike (and with A/C when it’s 115 outside!), and which I could drive several times a month on 50 mile RT adventures, and a few times a year to farther destinations (i.e. Phoenix – 115 miles one way, with an L3 charging point 65 miles into the trip and L2s along the way as well).

Tucson is hot. With any Leaf I get the battery is going to degrade regardless of how much or little I drive. Based on my driving habits, is it really worth it for me to spend the additional money for a newer model? In my situation, the cons for a 2011 with a new battery seem include the 3.3 kWh charger, the less efficient heater, lack of B-mode, and the trunk design; whereas the pluses for the 2015 S include the 6.6 kWh charger, a more efficient heater, availability of B-mode, better interior design, and more time left on the overall (non-battery) warranty. While the 6.6 kWh charger would be nice, the frequency with which I would need anything other than an overnight charge would be really rare (a handful of times each year), and having QC available on either car also makes this seem not so bad in the few instances when I would travel longer distances. Living in Tucson and mostly driving short distances makes the heater issues with the older model also seem less significant for me. Having B-mode would be useful for handful of times each year when I drive up and down our regional mountains, but this too would be really infrequent.

Am I missing something? It seems like the older model with the new battery (yes, I would get more details about the battery replacement and check it with LeafSpy, and yes, I would want to know more about the state of things like the tires and brakes, etc. before settling on a final price) would meet the needs of my situation while saving me $5,000+. I would spend the extra money if it seemed worthwhile, but I’m not certain that it is in this case.

Thanks to everyone who contributes to making this site a great resource!
Emily, I salute your gusto on this topic. Speaking from experience, us low mileage drivers won't really get "full value" out of an EV, especially in hot climates. I'm at 45,000 mi and 9-bars on my 2011 SL. If you must, spend the least and go with the 2011 + new battery. You'll save enough to buy another new battery in 4 years (and you'll probably need to). The newer 2015 does have nicer amenities, but at a price, and most of these won't make a difference to you as a low mileage user. I still charge on 120V, 12 Amp Level 1 and crank the heat to 90F on my 8 mi RT commute. :o Level 2 charging in our small community is a joke and I've hardly bothered, let alone needed it. I think the Volt is better in hot climates, but then you'll pay more upfront (used prices haven't tanked quite like the Leaf) and use more electricity to cool the battery. The positive is never needing to worry about trips to Phoenix.

If you're financially able to blow the extra $5000-$10,000 difference, then get what best meets your needs and what you'll enjoy the most. Don't get me wrong, I paid full MSRP in 2011 and have been eaten by the depreciation, but I also LOVE never sending another cent to the oil cartels. I'm NEVER buying gasoline again. The Volt is a nice car, but more sports car like and more difficult to get into and out of. These old bones have trouble every time I drive my parent's low roof line sedan.
Reddy
2011 SL; 9 bar, 45.80 AHr; 43,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

Evoforce
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:36 pm

powersurge wrote:To that poster in Arizona... DO not buy a Leaf.... Or any EV.

I can see no reason other than impulsive thinking, to buy a Leaf that lives in that type of heat. Every day the car is exposed, it will deteriorate, and if you only occasionally drive, it is FOOLISH to have any EV.

Buy a regular car and drive it for 10-20 years trouble free.


Amazing.... Truly Amazing!! You again have left me in wonderment.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1563
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:07 pm

powersurge wrote:To that poster in Arizona... DO not buy a Leaf.... Or any EV.

I can see no reason other than impulsive thinking, to buy a Leaf that lives in that type of heat. Every day the car is exposed, it will deteriorate, and if you only occasionally drive, it is FOOLISH to have any EV.

Buy a regular car and drive it for 10-20 years trouble free.


Reasons to drive LEAF EV in AZ:
1. Carpool lane access!
2. Reduced vehicle license tax and registration fees.
3. Among best vehicle air conditioning systems available.
4. Fuel and maintenance cost savings compared to comparable gasoline or Diesel engine vehicle for high annual mileage use is enough to pay for new battery when needed.
5. Convenience--plug in at night, drive during day and never stop at gas stations.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

emilyuna
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:10 am
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:00 am

Thank you all so much for your input!

Reddy, I am with you on cranking the heat. I have a much higher heat tolerance than average, and that’s definitely a plus of living in AZ and driving short distances! I don’t even use AC all the time in the summer. That said, having instant cold AC every now and then is a desirable feature here, even for me!

GerryAZ wrote:
Reasons to drive LEAF EV in AZ:
1. Carpool lane access!
2. Reduced vehicle license tax and registration fees.
3. Among best vehicle air conditioning systems available.
4. Fuel and maintenance cost savings compared to comparable gasoline or Diesel engine vehicle for high annual mileage use is enough to pay for new battery when needed.
5. Convenience--plug in at night, drive during day and never stop at gas stations.


Yes! Number one on your list isn’t such a thing for me down in Tucson as we don’t have the carpool lanes, but all of the other things you list are precisely why I am considering a Leaf. I find numbers four and five particularly appealing, even as a low mileage driver, and here’s why: I understand that low mileage means that I won’t get the “full value” of the car, but I don’t think that’s exclusive to the Leaf, any EV, or frankly any car. As a low mileage driver who doesn’t have a daily car commute and wants to keep living without debt other than student loans and a mortgage, I am reluctant to spend a lot on a car. Yes, I could buy a new car, or even a one/two year old car to take advantage of the initial value depreciation, but that would add debt to my life, and for my limited driving needs I just don’t want to. And yes, that goes for the Leaf, too: y’all have convinced me not to get a newer Leaf. As I mentioned before, I feel like I should be able to live without a car, but I just can’t do it long term. I appreciate the convenience of having a car, and am willing to spend a bit of money on one. Let’s say $7000 or less.

What I see in a Leaf, particularly a 2011 + new battery, is a car that has a bunch of great qualities that a comparably priced ICE car might be less likely to have:
Newer
Lower miles
Clean title
All of the Leafs are hatchbacks

Finding a Leaf with under 70,000 miles is easy; finding a ICE that I am willing to pay for with so few miles is much harder. As the cars age and the miles increase, the maintenance, both scheduled and un-planned, increases – as do the expenses and hassle which can easily become substantial. With a Leaf, even one that would need a new battery let’s say in six years based on what I’ve read about battery degradation and what I know about my driving habits, what I see is a car that I could pay less than $7,000 for now, and then drive for those six years with very low expenses (i.e. gas, registration fees, and more importantly maintenance as compared to a much older and/or higher mileage ICE car that I would be willing to pay for). At the end of those six years, I’d know that I would need to either fork over the money for a new battery or get a new car. Battery degradation is a thing, especially in Arizona, but it seems like the return on investment that I would get on a cheap older Leaf makes it worth serious consideration.

Thankfully, I am here for the content and not your judgment, so to powersurge in particular, please tell me how wrong I am, but please do be specific. I genuinely want to learn.

BuckMkII
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:13 pm

One potential problem if you are hoping to use your fuel savings to fund new batteries in the future and keep the car running: manufacturers are required by law to keep spare parts available for 10 years. The 24 kWh pack ended with the 2016 model year, so don't expect to replace one after 2026.

Or does the ten year clock start the day they sold the last new 2016 24 kWh car, not whenever they declared the model year over? Anyway, they will be gone eventually.
2013 SV no QC, built July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17: AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250
bar 12 lost 8/21/17
on 2/2/18: AHr = 56.1; SOH = 85.7%; Hx = 81.5; ODO = 44,444

powersurge
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:46 am

BuckMkII wrote:One potential problem if you are hoping to use your fuel savings to fund new batteries in the future and keep the car running: manufacturers are required by law to keep spare parts available for 10 years. The 24 kWh pack ended with the 2016 model year, so don't expect to replace one after 2026.

Or does the ten year clock start the day they sold the last new 2016 24 kWh car, not whenever they declared the model year over? Anyway, they will be gone eventually.


I think you are being pessimistic in thinking that the lifetime of a Leaf is going to be only 10 years. As electric cars become more popular, there will still be value in all EVs. There are cars that are 40-50 years old that you can still find parts easily, and even in aftermarket.

So don't make the Leaf into a "disposable" car after 10 years. That would be pure foolishness financially, and also for "the environment" to toss a car into the trash prematurely....

ebeighe
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:56 pm
Delivery Date: 27 Jul 2017
Leaf Number: 308422
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:51 am

emilyuna wrote:(I bike and sometimes take the bus if it’s too hot)

hi emily!
I'm in Phoenix; we just got a '17 S in July. I ride my bike daily for short to medium distance trips and can tell you firsthand if you're used to cycling, you won't miss having heat in the winter (just leave it off!) :lol:

Also by the way, as GerryAZ mentioned, the a/c is remarkably efficient and comfortable.
"Brilliant Silver" 2017 S built 04/17, delivered 7/27/2017

emilyuna
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:10 am
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:23 am

Thank you all again so much for your comments! BuckMkII, yeah, the battery availability is something to be aware of for sure, but I do agree with powersurge that there will be options. I mean, one can never totally know what will happen in the future ... I guess I'll find out in 12-15 years when I get ready to put a fourth battery into a twenty year old Leaf? :D ebeighe - it's great to hear from another person in the southwest who is a daily bike commuter who also has a Leaf. I'm glad to hear you're enjoying yours so far!

I've got my Craigslist saved searches dialed in and am ready to go with LeafSpy; now it's just a matter of the right Leaf coming up for sale somewhere vaguely close to where I live.

Dooglas
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:26 am

powersurge wrote:
BuckMkII wrote:One potential problem if you are hoping to use your fuel savings to fund new batteries in the future and keep the car running: manufacturers are required by law to keep spare parts available for 10 years. The 24 kWh pack ended with the 2016 model year, so don't expect to replace one after 2026.

I think you are being pessimistic in thinking that the lifetime of a Leaf is going to be only 10 years. As electric cars become more popular, there will still be value in all EVs. There are cars that are 40-50 years old that you can still find parts easily, and even in aftermarket.

Past experience says you are probably right about long term parts availability. And one more observation. Current trending in the cost of Li-ion batteries suggests that a 24 kWh battery pack will be much less expensive in 10 years.
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30

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