jpadc
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 7:25 am
Delivery Date: 20 Dec 2014
Location: Indiana & Wisconsin

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:10 am

jimch530 wrote:The guy I bought it from had paid $21,988 plus dealer addons when it came off lease in 2013. Over $11,000 in depreciation in 2.5 years and only 5,200 miles. Brutal.

Makes one wonder why he would sell it at such a loss so soon?
2013 Leaf S /w Charge Package - Purchased new in Iowa City Dec. 2014
My previous car was a 2008 Prius Touring Package 5 - 73k Miles, 43 MPG lifetime

User avatar
Jefe
Gold Member
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:38 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Nov 2015
Leaf Number: 405983
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:37 am

jimch530 wrote:Thanks to all of you for your advice. I decided to go for the used 2011 with a 2015 battery. When I checked the Carfax I found it was from Arizona, no wonder Nissan had to replace the battery. We settled on $10,750 as a sales price. The guy I bought it from had paid $21,988 plus dealer addons when it came off lease in 2013. Over $11,000 in depreciation in 2.5 years and only 5,200 miles. Brutal.

The shopping experience was interesting. None of the salesmen (even at Nissan) knew much about the cars. One small lot dealer who specializes in Leafs didn't know about LeafSpy and was amazed when I showed him the condition of the batteries in his cars. He was pricing totally based on miles. He ordered an OBD-II connector and the iOS version of the software while I was still in his office.


This was mostly my experience too. Every Nissan dealer I spoked to emphatically told me that I do NOT want a used Leaf because of battery degradation. I know they are trying to sell new cars, but I wanted to say, you know this doesn't say much for how much use I would get out of a new one.
2013 SV + Premium Pkg. No QC.

jimch530
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:17 pm

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:24 pm

jpadc wrote:Makes one wonder why he would sell it at such a loss so soon?



They just bought a new Tesla, so I guess money was not an object. The two of them still had 5 vehicles left after selling the Leaf, including two VWs they bought new in the 60's.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1779
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Sat Feb 13, 2016 4:52 am

Jimch530,

I just read this thread--I hope you enjoy your car. I would have recommended the 2011 if I had read the thread sooner so I think you made the right choice. Some advice for your usage patterns:

1. Have the traction battery at 50% to 60% charge (6 or 7 charge bars) and do not plug in when you park for extended time. Make sure you unplug the Bluetooth or WiFi interface from the OBDII port when parking for more than a couple days (current draw will drain 12-volt battery and/or interfere with automatic charging so you will return to dead 12-volt battery). If you are used to leaving battery maintainers connected long-term while unattended, you can use one on the 12-volt battery. If not, the 2011 LEAF will charge the 12-volt battery from the traction battery every 5 days. This would only discharge the traction battery a few percent in 3 months so there would be no concern.

2. DCQC will stop before the battery is fully charged on 2011 LEAF so you will need to drive efficiently to make it home after a dealer visit unless you can find a place to charge along your route. You may want to plug in to dealer's L2 (208- or 240-volt EVSE) after DCQC stops to get the battery fully charged for your trip home.

3. Consider using 240-volt charging at home because it takes a long time to charge at 120 volts if the battery is depleted. If you have a dryer receptacle available, you can have the Nissan 120-volt EVSE upgraded to operate on 120 or 240 volts by EVSEupgrade.com for a reasonable price. If you charge from 120 volts, make sure the circuit from the panel to the receptacle is in pristine condition because the 12-ampere continuous load will cause overheating of marginal connections.

Gerry
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9226
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:13 am

Given your short range requirement (except for the annual dealer trip) and the fact that the alternative was a '13 S without even cruise control, I think you'll be happy with the 2011 SL. If there are no heated seats you can get aftermarket heated cushions that work ok. Heated steering wheels are really only a necessity for people like me with terrible circulation - gloves work fine for most people. Just keep in mind that the new battery will also degrade, and will do so more quickly the hotter the pack stays. That means charging late at night in hot weather to let it stay cool. Your car has a little solar panel that is supposed to maintain the 12 volt battery. It will only do so if it gets lots and lots of direct sun, but if you can arrange that you may not need an external battery maintainer. Check the accessory battery voltage occasionally, to make sure it stays above 12.5 volts at rest, with the car having been off for at least 15 minutes.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

emilyuna
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:10 am
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:12 am

Hi everyone! This forum seems great and I’ve learned a lot already! This topic seems similar to my conundrum, so I thought I’d start here for a new version of this comparison.

To avoid tl;dr, here’s the basic question: Considering that I live in Tucson, have light driving needs, and want to buy a used Leaf, which sounds better: a 2011 with QC (so presumably a 2011 SL because of the QC) and with a battery replaced in 2017 for $6-7,000 (such as this one https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/d/2011-nissan-leaf-with-new/6420700294.html), or a 2015 S with QC and 12 bars for $11-12,000 (such as this onehttp://www.redrockautoaz.com/detail-2015-nissan-leaf-4dr_hatchback_s-used-17045022.html)?

For those interested in the long version: My beloved 2002 Subaru Impreza was recently totaled while parked at my house because a rabbit chewed through a ton of the engine wires. The car only had 160,000 miles! I was going to drive it for another 5-10 years! This should get you in the mindset of how I think about cars. I wasn’t planning on buying a new car now, so the difference of $5-6,000 in the cost of a used Leaf is significant.

I don’t have a daily driving commute (I bike and sometimes take the bus if it’s too hot), and I live in a central area of town where most things are very close by. Even when I had a car I frequently did grocery runs on my bike. I’m on the borderline for needing a car. However, I would like to have a car that would enable me to do errands in town quickly and with more hauling capacity than I have on my bike (and with A/C when it’s 115 outside!), and which I could drive several times a month on 50 mile RT adventures, and a few times a year to farther destinations (i.e. Phoenix – 115 miles one way, with an L3 charging point 65 miles into the trip and L2s along the way as well).

Tucson is hot. With any Leaf I get the battery is going to degrade regardless of how much or little I drive. Based on my driving habits, is it really worth it for me to spend the additional money for a newer model? In my situation, the cons for a 2011 with a new battery seem include the 3.3 kWh charger, the less efficient heater, lack of B-mode, and the trunk design; whereas the pluses for the 2015 S include the 6.6 kWh charger, a more efficient heater, availability of B-mode, better interior design, and more time left on the overall (non-battery) warranty. While the 6.6 kWh charger would be nice, the frequency with which I would need anything other than an overnight charge would be really rare (a handful of times each year), and having QC available on either car also makes this seem not so bad in the few instances when I would travel longer distances. Living in Tucson and mostly driving short distances makes the heater issues with the older model also seem less significant for me. Having B-mode would be useful for handful of times each year when I drive up and down our regional mountains, but this too would be really infrequent.

Am I missing something? It seems like the older model with the new battery (yes, I would get more details about the battery replacement and check it with LeafSpy, and yes, I would want to know more about the state of things like the tires and brakes, etc. before settling on a final price) would meet the needs of my situation while saving me $5,000+. I would spend the extra money if it seemed worthwhile, but I’m not certain that it is in this case.

Thanks to everyone who contributes to making this site a great resource!

User avatar
HIOJim
Posts: 238
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:19 am
Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2016
Leaf Number: 5294
Location: King City, Oregon

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:20 am

mwalsh wrote:
jimch530 wrote:One small lot dealer who specializes in Leafs didn't know about LeafSpy and was amazed when I showed him the condition of the batteries in his cars. He was pricing totally based on miles. He ordered an OBD-II connector and the iOS version of the software while I was still in his office.


That's pretty bizarre. I mean, OK, I get that we're LEAF nerds here, but if I was making all or part of my living from selling a product I'd be darn certain to know as much about it as possible.

I am constantly amazed by the depth of care salesman ignorance. I showed LeafSpy to my dealers 'Leaf Expert' when I leased my 2016 and it was like I was showing him an alien artifact. It must be a thankless job to attract such an unmotivated work force.
Hans (2017 VW e-Golf SE) Leased 01/16/18
The Blue Beauty (2016 Leaf SV) - Lease return 01/21/18
The Dark Knight (2013 Leaf S) - Lease return 03/31/16
LineJumper (2011 Nissan LEAF eTec) - Sold 10/01/11
Sparky (2012 Chevy Volt) - Purchased 09/16/11

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1779
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:24 pm

emilyuna wrote:Hi everyone! This forum seems great and I’ve learned a lot already! This topic seems similar to my conundrum, so I thought I’d start here for a new version of this comparison.

To avoid tl;dr, here’s the basic question: Considering that I live in Tucson, have light driving needs, and want to buy a used Leaf, which sounds better: a 2011 with QC (so presumably a 2011 SL because of the QC) and with a battery replaced in 2017 for $6-7,000 (such as this one https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/d/2011-nissan-leaf-with-new/6420700294.html), or a 2015 S with QC and 12 bars for $11-12,000 (such as this onehttp://www.redrockautoaz.com/detail-2015-nissan-leaf-4dr_hatchback_s-used-17045022.html)?

For those interested in the long version: My beloved 2002 Subaru Impreza was recently totaled while parked at my house because a rabbit chewed through a ton of the engine wires. The car only had 160,000 miles! I was going to drive it for another 5-10 years! This should get you in the mindset of how I think about cars. I wasn’t planning on buying a new car now, so the difference of $5-6,000 in the cost of a used Leaf is significant.

I don’t have a daily driving commute (I bike and sometimes take the bus if it’s too hot), and I live in a central area of town where most things are very close by. Even when I had a car I frequently did grocery runs on my bike. I’m on the borderline for needing a car. However, I would like to have a car that would enable me to do errands in town quickly and with more hauling capacity than I have on my bike (and with A/C when it’s 115 outside!), and which I could drive several times a month on 50 mile RT adventures, and a few times a year to farther destinations (i.e. Phoenix – 115 miles one way, with an L3 charging point 65 miles into the trip and L2s along the way as well).

Tucson is hot. With any Leaf I get the battery is going to degrade regardless of how much or little I drive. Based on my driving habits, is it really worth it for me to spend the additional money for a newer model? In my situation, the cons for a 2011 with a new battery seem include the 3.3 kWh charger, the less efficient heater, lack of B-mode, and the trunk design; whereas the pluses for the 2015 S include the 6.6 kWh charger, a more efficient heater, availability of B-mode, better interior design, and more time left on the overall (non-battery) warranty. While the 6.6 kWh charger would be nice, the frequency with which I would need anything other than an overnight charge would be really rare (a handful of times each year), and having QC available on either car also makes this seem not so bad in the few instances when I would travel longer distances. Living in Tucson and mostly driving short distances makes the heater issues with the older model also seem less significant for me. Having B-mode would be useful for handful of times each year when I drive up and down our regional mountains, but this too would be really infrequent.

Am I missing something? It seems like the older model with the new battery (yes, I would get more details about the battery replacement and check it with LeafSpy, and yes, I would want to know more about the state of things like the tires and brakes, etc. before settling on a final price) would meet the needs of my situation while saving me $5,000+. I would spend the extra money if it seemed worthwhile, but I’m not certain that it is in this case.

Thanks to everyone who contributes to making this site a great resource!


If you really want/need to drive to Phoenix once in a while, then a LEAF is not a good choice for you. There is not enough DCQC or even L2 (208 or 240 volt) charging infrastructure between Phoenix and Tucson to make the trip feasible. If a public charger was out of service, you would be stranded. A 2016 or newer SV or SL with 30 kWh battery would help make the trip with less range anxiety between chargers until its battery starts to deteriorate, but prices are higher. If the battery in the 2011 was replaced in 2017, then I would take the 2011 because the SL has more features and the 2011 motor has more torque than the 2013 and later models (I could feel the difference in acceleration when I first got the 2015 because it was noticeably slower than the 2011). Also, build quality of the Japan-built models seems to be higher. The 6 kW charger in the 2015 is helpful when using public charging, but the 3.3 kW charger in the 2011 is fine for overnight charging at home. Think about your need to make trips between Phoenix and Tucson before you buy either LEAF. Traffic on I-10 moves fast and range is reduced at 75 or 80 mi/hr so don't plan on more than 65 miles without charging.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

SageBrush
Posts: 2687
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:25 am

jimch530 wrote:Can anybody point me to a source that is like a LEAF for Dummies or Battery Basics? I particularly want to know about all the terms used in LeafSpy such as SOH, GIDs, Hx, etc. and what values I should be looking for in a used LEAF.

The LeafSpy program has a tutorial, and IIRC the website has a FAQ
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

emilyuna
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:10 am
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: 2011 with new battery vs. 2013 with 12 bars

Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:07 pm

GerryAZ wrote:If you really want/need to drive to Phoenix once in a while, then a LEAF is not a good choice for you. There is not enough DCQC or even L2 (208 or 240 volt) charging infrastructure between Phoenix and Tucson to make the trip feasible. If a public charger was out of service, you would be stranded. A 2016 or newer SV or SL with 30 kWh battery would help make the trip with less range anxiety between chargers until its battery starts to deteriorate, but prices are higher. If the battery in the 2011 was replaced in 2017, then I would take the 2011 because the SL has more features and the 2011 motor has more torque than the 2013 and later models (I could feel the difference in acceleration when I first got the 2015 because it was noticeably slower than the 2011). Also, build quality of the Japan-built models seems to be higher. The 6 kW charger in the 2015 is helpful when using public charging, but the 3.3 kW charger in the 2011 is fine for overnight charging at home. Think about your need to make trips between Phoenix and Tucson before you buy either LEAF. Traffic on I-10 moves fast and range is reduced at 75 or 80 mi/hr so don't plan on more than 65 miles without charging.



Thank you so much for your input, Gerry! It sounds like you've lived with both of the cars I'm considering, and you're in Arizona, so this is just the information I'm looking for. I'm sorry your 2011 was totaled. I had been wondering if there was a difference in quality between the earlier models manufactured in Japan and the later US builds. Your comment about the 6.6 vs 3.3 kW chargers also confirmed what I was thinking.

As for driving to Phoenix ... yeah. Ultimately it's a drive that I do so infrequently that I don't think I will base my car buying on that trip. Being able to do that drive seems more like a luxury than a necessity, as the vast majority of the driving that I do is in town and within 50 miles RT from my house, and I'm comfortable renting an ICE car if I really need to go farther. Ideally I'd like to get a car that will meet my basic needs with a low overhead cost for long enough that it will give me more time to save up for a model with a larger battery while also allowing the technology to continue improve, as it seems to be doing rapidly these days. Again, I wasn't planning on buying a car right now (I just bought a house! Too many large purchases at once!), and faced with paying basically the same amount ($6-8,000) for an older used ICE car and a used older Leaf, the Leaf seems like the more cost effective and environmentally friendly option for the next 5-10 years. I'm leaning towards the 2011. Sadly I am lately too late on that one as the seller told me there's already another interested buyer. However, as I don't urgently need a car, I'll stay on the lookout for good deals on other 2011/2012 SLs that have had their batteries replaced. They seem to be popping up on Craigslist here and there.

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