New guy, considering a used Leaf

Hey guys,

I've just started looking at buying a Leaf. I thought they were super cool when they first came out but I couldn't swing the cost new. I wish I could afford a Tesla! The other day on a whim I finally took a look at used ones. Holy cow. I thought for sure these cars would hold their value and people wouldn't be selling them until they had 100's of thousands of miles on them like most used Prius' (prii?) that I can afford. Perhaps my mileage thoughts are basic ignorance of the lifespan of an EV car and battery pack. I put less than 8K miles on a year currently.

I came across several 2012-2013 S and SV trims for right around $10k with less than 20,000 miles. I've just started doing research on the car so I'll try to read as much as I can and not ask too many redundant questions or post threads that have already been answered.

I guess the only real question I have before I sink too much time into this is whether these prices and cars are reasonable or is there a huge problem with this car causing the massive depreciation? Am I missing something? Is there a certain year I should avoid or consider over others? I am not concerned with resale down the road. The cars are so cheap anyways it wouldn't make much difference and I generally tend to drive a car into the ground. I've yet to replace one with less than 200,000 on it but, we've been driving Hondas since the mid 90's.

I have no illusions that these cars are very very limited on range. My commute to work is 8 miles one way and I tend to stay within a 15 mile radius of home. I think that I can easily use an EV car for my everyday needs. I would certainly like to. If you guys think I am making a huge mistake I would appreciate an early heads up before I spend a lot of hours reading up on a car that is just, well, a bad idea. We currently have 2 "just broken in" Civics and I am thinking of selling mine and getting the Leaf. My wife would keep her Civic, long commute, so we would always have at least one "regular" car we can use for long trips.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

There are two problems with the Leaf that are causing the depreciation: range loss and a soft market for EVs that, combined with the tax credit for buying new ones, makes used Leafs a bad deal unless they are priced in the range that you are seeing and the buyers' range needs are modest. Generally I tell people to avoid 2011 through March 2013 Leafs because of the more easily degraded battery chemistry. In your case I'd suggest, if you live in a cool climate, any Leaf with a heatpump (2013 and up SV or SL) and no more than one "capacity bar" lost. If you live in a hotter climate, or it's possible the car you are buying came from one, then look for a Leaf S (only if you don't need a lot of heat) or SV made no earlier than April of 2013. You need to learn to read the bar gauge on the right side of the dash and the door sticker with manufacturing info to tell that. With such modest range needs you should be able to find an 11 bar or even 10 bar Leaf for about $8-9k.

I, like you , use every ounce of service out of a car. I bought mine new 2 years ago, have 25K miles on it, and the battery is still like new. I plan to keep my Leaf, (hopefully like my other cars) for a couple of decades.... With your light use of a car, I think you would also be able to keep a Leaf for at least 10 years or more.

Yes, the reason for depreciation of these cars is that these cars NEW ($30-40K), with the federal and state tax savings can reach an out-of-pocket price of about $20k. Also, I would say that many, if not most see the Leaf as a high tech toy that they will replace when (like the evolution of the computer) next newest and improved version comes out.

If you buy a low mileage Leaf (20k miles) you would get a good value long term. Yes, the battery does slowly deteriorate, but it would take a LONG time for the car to be unusable with your distance requirement. Most people want to push the car to go 80+ miles between charges, and of course after a few years that is not possible...

I plan to use my car for my long distance commute (50-60 miles) for as long as possible. As the battery looses capacity, my wife will use it for around town errands (10-20 miles), until the battery cannot accept a realistic charge..... Which I estimate will be when the car is at least 10 years old. Then, If I want, I will replace the battery (with a much higher capacity one) and hopefully get another 10 years of use... The main issue for me (and I think you) is that I OWN an electric car that saves money on gas AND has no maintenance cost during the life of the car... I really don't care if the newer cars will have higher range, or more tech goodies, because I am enjoying the EV benefits TODAY.. feel free to pm me..

I'm posting my questions here because it's a similar scenario.
We are about to buy a used 2013 Leaf S trim, for $9000 listing price. It's got the premium package on top of the S trim, making it a really nice car for the money. Also NAV, heated seats, heated steering wheel, big display, key less entry and start button, etc. No fast charging port but we live in the middle of nowhere so no ChadeMo stations around. The dealer told us that it charged pretty quick so I'm guessing it has the 6,6kw (fast charging if I'm not mistaking). Is there a way to tell?
It has the 12 battery bars on the display (we've seen the car 2 times) and 29,000 miles on the odometer. It was owned previously in Nebraska.
We're buying it from a dealer 100 miles away from our home so we need to recharge on the way home...
What else should we check, ask, demand? Will it have the warranty for the battery included and how can I check? Thanks in advance.

get the Leafspy app on iTunes or googleplay for your phone, and the OBDII Bluetooth plug. Then you can more accurately diagnose the computer information of true mileage, number of chargings that the car has had, and battery condition...

Guguluff said:

I'm posting my questions here because it's a similar scenario.
We are about to buy a used 2013 Leaf S trim, for $9000 listing price. It's got the premium package on top of the S trim, making it a really nice car for the money. Also NAV, heated seats, heated steering wheel, big display, key less entry and start button, etc. No fast charging port but we live in the middle of nowhere so no ChadeMo stations around. The dealer told us that it charged pretty quick so I'm guessing it has the 6,6kw (fast charging if I'm not mistaking). Is there a way to tell?
It has the 12 battery bars on the display (we've seen the car 2 times) and 29,000 miles on the odometer. It was owned previously in Nebraska.
We're buying it from a dealer 100 miles away from our home so we need to recharge on the way home...
What else should we check, ask, demand? Will it have the warranty for the battery included and how can I check? Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

This is not an S, it is an SV. The S does not come with Premium Package or the "big display." If you have a 4 camera parking system and Bose stereo then it's an SV with Premium. If not, it's either an SV without Premium or it's an S, also with no Premium package.

LeftieBiker said:

Guguluff said:

I'm posting my questions here because it's a similar scenario.
We are about to buy a used 2013 Leaf S trim, for $9000 listing price. It's got the premium package on top of the S trim, making it a really nice car for the money. Also NAV, heated seats, heated steering wheel, big display, key less entry and start button, etc. No fast charging port but we live in the middle of nowhere so no ChadeMo stations around. The dealer told us that it charged pretty quick so I'm guessing it has the 6,6kw (fast charging if I'm not mistaking). Is there a way to tell?
It has the 12 battery bars on the display (we've seen the car 2 times) and 29,000 miles on the odometer. It was owned previously in Nebraska.
We're buying it from a dealer 100 miles away from our home so we need to recharge on the way home...
What else should we check, ask, demand? Will it have the warranty for the battery included and how can I check? Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

This is not an S, it is an SV. The S does not come with Premium Package or the "big display." If you have a 4 camera parking system and Bose stereo then it's an SV with Premium. If not, it's either an SV without Premium or it's an S, also with no Premium package.

Click to expand...

Agree, the only package available on the S model is charger package which includes the faster 6.6kw charger and QC port.
I'd guess it's a SV without the LED Headlights and QC port package, but SVs do automatically come with the 6.6kw onboard charger, which is nice.

Powersurge, will try to find a OBDII Bluetooth but not sure I can get it till tomorrow, around town... We are going back and forward w/ the dealer for 10 days now.
The dealer has 4 Leafs for sale and 2 of them are SL and the other 2 are S trims. This seems to be the nicer one and the cheaper one (we've seen an SL Leaf w/ small display, no Nav, no Premium pkg). They had more, but they sold some so I'm guessing they get at least the trims right. But wouldn't put my money on it, the sales persons are usually misinformed or ignorant about the cars that they sell... Would love to have the 6.6kw on board charger.
Thanks for the info!

Wow, thanks guys. Plenty to read and lots to consider. I will definitely look for an SV model and I do not live in a cold place, compared to say Upstate NY, but it does snow here at least once a winter. I will also take into consideration the mention of the difference in the battery chemistry after 2013. Thanks so much everyone. I will try and get a test drive sometime soon and see if the car drives and feels good to me. I can research a car all day but if I sit in it and hate it then that's worth more than any stat sheet could ever say.

I'll keep you guys up to date. I did test drive a new 2017 Civic the other day. It was pretty darn nice. I would really like to try and use a totally green EV car if I can though. I also briefly looked into rapid charge stations for the house and a banner link took me to a site that had them listed at around $500-600. Not too bad. I will factor that into the price of the car but I think if I can beat down the car price to encompass a charge station as well I would be doing pretty good.

Guguluff said:

We are going back and forward w/ the dealer for 10 days now.
... Would love to have the 6.6kw on board charger.
Thanks for the info!

Click to expand...

A bit OT, but long ago my mom saw a car on the dealer's lot. She said she'd pay $3,000, it was priced probably at $6,000. They all laughed, and said, "No way." Well, a week goes by and they say they'll sell it for less, maybe $5,000. She says no. It goes on and on for about two months. Finally they call and tell her she has a deal!! Well, by then she wasn't interested, although I tried to get her to tell them including tax.

With any LEAF purchase, I'd want to make sure it had the QC option. I know that some, at least in 2011, came without it, and I think you can still get the lower model S without it. I have used it about 65 times over the almost 5 years, and in many ways it is the difference between being able to use the LEAF for those trips and not.

Good luck with everything.

1.Yes... depreciation is huge.
2. No the cars do NOT wear out and No, there is nothing wrong with them.

The Depreciation is primarily due to the fact that they are heavily Subsidized.
Figure $10,000 worth... or 25% of MSRP.
Next.. most are lease returns.. so it was the Dealer and Mfgr who got the subsidy money
and then Lease Money for 2-but usually 3 years.

Car is essentially paid for by then.. and very profitably !

Dealers do NOT want used leafs on the lot.. they want to sell the very lucrative Leases.
so, they whole sale out the cars.

In Some Markets.. like SF Bay Area... used leafs from All Over USA arrive for sale.. further reducing local prices.

All of this is WONDERFUL FOR THE BUYER.. AS THE USED LEAF IS A NO BRAINER COMPARED TO NEW..
UNLESS YOU ARE ELEGIBLE FOR SUBSTANTIAL REBATES ( LIKE I WAS ).

Now.. this is the time to do your homework on this website.. reading the many years of archieved battery life info
that leaf owners have put here.. for your benefit !

The basics are this.. 2011 and 2012 Cars ( first gen) often had prematurely short battery lives.
You will read much about guys praying for replacement batteries before 5 years or 60K miles has elapsed.
Learn about "losing bars", Battery Capacity and Degradation, and Leaf Spy.

The first gen cars were built in Japan..with exceptional fit and finish.. most have quick charge, but all have slow
3.3KwH chargers.. that take many more hours to charge the car when it is low. they have 24 KwHour battery packs
and a typical 85 mile range when new. they have resistance heaters which are bad energy hogs . A 2011-2012 with a New Battery Pack can be had around $8000 and is a great deal.

In 2013.. an improved battery was introduced.. and cars made june 2013 or later have had much better battery capacity life.
These cars were made in Tennesee.. there was some reduction in fit/finish in the early ones..but they are still fine cars.
S-models were introduced in 2013.. and are essentially the same as first gen cars. Many have the optional quick charge package which comes with the bigger 6.6 KwH charger standard on 13 and on SV's and SLs. These are the cheapest of the leafs with the better battery, and are often as cheap or cheaper than gen 1 cars. A fine choice if you aren't a bells and whistles junkie.

In 2016 the larger 30KwH battery was introduced.. giving new cars about 20 miles more range. This is significant for many people.
And... the battery replacement warranty was upped to 8 yrs and 100,000 miles... which is huge !

There are no 2014 models.. ( I think).

There is an open recall on some of the later cars.. for airbags I think.

You can check the details of S, SV, and SL trim.

I spent LOTS more to get SV features.. the more efficient Hybrid Heater being the primary one.
You will pay more for the SV / SL models used.. the SL's being rather rare.

Do find out about rebates and dealer discounts ( end of year clearance) to compare with used prices.
If you could find an S-30 used... it would have tons of life, warranty and range.. and what is probably a very
attractive price.. Think of it as a 60's VW bug. Few Features, High Quality, High Economy, High Reliability, Low Cost.

I have a 2014 'S' model Leaf (manufactured in April 2014) with the QC package, in Gun Metal color. Exactly what I wanted.
I will probably never use the QC, but it is nice to have, and the 6.6kw charger is great for quicker home charging.
I didn't want the SL or SV models because I wanted as few 'bells and whistles' as possible: I like to push buttons for radio stations, use knobs to tune aforesaid radio, etc.
I bought mine as a Georgia lease return with 21k miles for $11,250. It has all 12 bars, and I have gone 93 miles in ECO mode on a charge and pulled into my garage with less than 6% charge left.
I bought a Clipper Creek LCS-25 used from eBay for $300 delivered, and paid an electrician $200 to run a dedicated 220v 30amp circuit to the garage to plug the EVSE into.
I love the car, the ease of plugging it into the EVSE at night, and the money savings: My electric bill went up $30 a month because of the car charging, but we are saving the $125 a month we used to pay for gasoline.
If it will at all work for you, I would say to go for it.
My last electric was a Smart, and the Leaf is so much better and more practical.

hello, i still find myself confused by the basics.

Looking for a second car for my parents, to be used as a running around town vehicle. They won't put on a ton of miles and they'll have a minivan as a backup. Reliability and durability are important so I'd like to get a vehicle where the battery will last.

There are a host of 2013 S with 25k miles for around $9000, which sounds like something I want to avoid (based on battery degradation per this thread). However, for clarity, will you please interpret this comment in the ads I'm seeing:

"This Leaf has the 440 volt Quick Charge Package. Charge 80% in 30 Minutes."

Otherwise, sounds like my best bet is a 2013 or newer SV or SL, which are in the $10k-$11k range around here (Salt Lake City)?

Thank you

If they really only need a "running around town" vehicle, then a Leaf with a degraded battery might be a bargain that would work for them. How many miles do they drive, at most? If you want a slower-degrading pack, look for a 2013 Leaf built after March of 2013. The early build 2013 degrades as fast as the 2011-2012 packs.

DC Fast Charge (aka QC) is a second charging port that accepts a plug from a much larger charging station that bypasses the onboard charger, and directly charges the battery pack, at 400+ volts and high amperage. It was an option from the beginning on the SL, became standard on the SL and optional on the SV around 2012, then when the Leaf was improved in 2013 it became an option on the then-new S. With the S it replaces the slower 3.3kw onboard charger with the 6.6kw charger found in the 2013+ SV and SL. It became standard on the SV in 2015 or 2016.

thank you, so i still need the fast charge unit in the house to take advantage of the rapid charge, right?

leafforme said:

thank you, so i still need the fast charge unit in the house to take advantage of the rapid charge, right?

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All Leafs can charge at up to 15a @ 240v, newer ones can go up to 27.5a @ 240v, this is called L2 charging and yes you need a L2 EVSE to take advantage of L2 charging, they start ~ $300 and go up to $700 or more. Leafs can also have a much larger connector called L3(or QC) but L3 chargers will only be found in commercial establishments, you won't have L3 at home.
L3 can charge at up to 80% in 30 minutes, 15a 240v will take about 6 hours, 27.5a 240v will take about 4 hrs from a mostly depleted battery to almost full.
27.5a L2 is independent of QC, a Leaf can have either, both or neither, all Leafs will have the ability to charge at least 15a 240v along with 120v.
Not sure what you mean by "rapid charge" people usually use L1 for 120v, L2 for 240v up to 27.5a(on select Leafs) and L3(or QC) for something you won't have at home, a commercial charger.

Nissan salescreatures sometimes use the term "fast charge" loosely, implying that the standard L-1/L-2 charging port is for "quick charging." They may not know their Leafs, or they may be lying to imply that the QC option is present when it isn't. In any case, QC ports are larger second ports to the left of the standard L-1/L-2 port. You can see a blank cover plate there if the port isn't installed. QC is an option, but it can't be installed by dealers, only by the factory, or occasionally, by really determined Leaf owners.

yes i had understood that the ads can be misleading. so the quick charge the ad refers to is the L3 we would find commercially, not related to the home EVSE. And it is not otherwise known whether a specific 2013 S would have only the L1 or also the L2 port without asking.

And 2013+ SV and SL all have L2?

is that right?

leafforme said:

yes i had understood that the ads can be misleading. so the quick charge the ad refers to is the L3 we would find commercially, not related to the home EVSE. And it is not otherwise known whether a specific 2013 S would have only the L1 or also the L2 port without asking.

And 2013+ SV and SL all have L2?

is that right?

Click to expand...

All Leafs have L-1/L-2 ports. It's the second QC port that isn't found in all cars. If a Leaf S has QC then it also has the faster 6.6kw onboard charger. If a Leaf is pre-2013, or is an S without QC, then it has the slower 3.3kw onboard charger. QC, aka L-3, needs a big, expensive commercial charging station, although there is now a smaller Chinese unit on the market that can supposedly be installed at home, with major wiring upgrades...

LeftieBiker said:

leafforme said:

yes i had understood that the ads can be misleading. so the quick charge the ad refers to is the L3 we would find commercially, not related to the home EVSE. And it is not otherwise known whether a specific 2013 S would have only the L1 or also the L2 port without asking.

And 2013+ SV and SL all have L2?

is that right?

Click to expand...

All Leafs have L-1/L-2 ports. It's the second QC port that isn't found in all cars. If a Leaf S has QC then it also has the faster 6.6kw onboard charger. If a Leaf is pre-2013, or is an S without QC, then it has the slower 3.3kw onboard charger. QC, aka L-3, needs a big, expensive commercial charging station, although there is now a smaller Chinese unit on the market that can supposedly be installed at home, with major wiring upgrades...

Click to expand...

to make sure I understand, you are saying that if any S has the QC, it Will have The L2 6.6kw onboard charger regardless of the model year? or is it possible i could end up with a 2013 S with quick charge but only L1?

Now is this related to the model year battery chemical degradation issue? Or is it completely separate? In other words, Even if I can find a 2013 S with QC and L2, am I at risk of a degraded battery if manufactured before June 2013?

thanks very much for all the information you have given me.