After Market High Capacity Battery

Hi All,

Does anyone know of any companies selling high capacity (30 kWh+) batteries for Leafs? There are 200k Leafs out there, many with diminished capacities so it would seem a great business opportunity, especially if the balance of the car is still in great condition.

In short, no.

^^^
Correct. See my response at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=476347#p476347.

Daffy911 said:

Hi All,

Does anyone know of any companies selling high capacity (30 kWh+) batteries for Leafs? There are 200k Leafs out there, many with diminished capacities so it would seem a great business opportunity, especially if the balance of the car is still in great condition.

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Actually, it's an extremely limited business opportunity in the USA, or anywhere else where new BEV sales are heavily subsidized, and rational markets are so heavily distorted by these government policies.

Depending on where you live in the USA, You can get a $7,500 to ~$15,000 in total subsidies to buy a new BEV with a new battery, as opposed to $0 in subsidies anywhere to replace a BEV's battery pack.

Just look at the number of forum members who have bought two, three or even more BEVs in just ~5 years, as opposed to the two (?) who have actually purchased replacement packs for their LEAFs.

It just makes more sense (from a personal financial standpoint) for almost all BEV owners to sell their vehicle to another driver with lower capacity needs as battery capacity degrades, and get the free money from the government, by buying a higher capacity pack, which happens to come with a new BEV...

Is there any way to replace the individual cells in an existing Leaf battery pack to "refresh" the pack or even increase it's capacity with better / newer tech cells (assuming they would still be compatible with the existing charger, which may be a big assumption). I know the dealer can do this (replace just individual cells in a pack). Are they standard cells like the Panasonic or LG cells that other car companies use, or at least compatible?

They are large format, box-like cells. They can be bought and used individually (my Vectrix motorcycle uses 18 of the boxed cell pairs) but I don't know what's involved in replacing cell pairs in a Leaf. The biggest obstacle to doing this to fight degradation is that the cells tend to degrade uniformly, so unless you have an otherwise great pack with one or two bad cells, it isn't worth doing.

edatoakrun said:

Daffy911 said:

Hi All,

Does anyone know of any companies selling high capacity (30 kWh+) batteries for Leafs? There are 200k Leafs out there, many with diminished capacities so it would seem a great business opportunity, especially if the balance of the car is still in great condition.

Click to expand...

Actually, it's an extremely limited business opportunity in the USA, or anywhere else where new BEV sales are heavily subsidized, and rational markets are so heavily distorted by these government policies.

Depending on where you live in the USA, You can get a $7,500 to ~$15,000 in total subsidies to buy a new BEV with a new battery, as opposed to $0 in subsidies anywhere to replace a BEV's battery pack.

Just look at the number of forum members who have bought two, three or even more BEVs in just ~5 years, as opposed to the two (?) who have actually purchased replacement packs for their LEAFs.

It just makes more sense (from a personal financial standpoint) for almost all BEV owners to sell their vehicle to another driver with lower capacity needs as battery capacity degrades, and get the free money from the government, by buying a higher capacity pack, which happens to come with a new BEV...

Click to expand...

Sigh. The disposable car.
Eventually the subsidies will stop *ahem Trump* and it will no longer make sense to toss the 3 year old BEV for a new one. Then we'll see.

There's a company that says they can make any 24kWh Leaf into a 48kWh Leaf. I think they just add another battery in the trunk that they got from a wrecked Leaf. I think they charge some $6,500 for the conversion but I'm not sure. You'll have to look them up yourself if you're interested.

Jefe said:

Sigh. The disposable car.
Eventually the subsidies will stop *ahem Trump* and it will no longer make sense to toss the 3 year old BEV for a new one. Then we'll see.

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Not disposable. These off-lease Leafs are ending up back on the road as heavily-discounted used cars. The result is that a lot more EVs are on the road than if those people just held onto their cars and purchased a new battery pack.

Yes, the post-subsidies world will be very different. I look forward to the whole market maturing a little. I just hope it survives the transition.

Having installed a "PriUPS" generator system for my off-grid solar system, I found that, at least here in Houston, there are viable businesses to upgrade/replace/repair the traction batteries - independent of dealers. The Prius battery is much smaller and (most) NiMH construction (easier/cheaper?) which might drive the economics somewhat different. However, if the number of Leaf's in a certain area reaches a "critical mass" - may become viable? Getting the Leaf's battery replaced appears to me to actually be less labor intensive than the Prius! These cars are so robust and useful - what a shame to throw in the recycle bin because of a repairable part.

IF you could add the option of upgrading the capacity - and Nissan allowing the required re-programming - just might be a viable business proposition. So many Prius's and so few Leafs!!

Cars are the #1 most recycled consumer product and I don't see why that would change just because they're electric. Nissan seems to have their batteries on lock-down and won't sell a battery by itself to an individual and also there's rumors that Nissan needs to pair the battery with the car otherwise it won't work. That is normal with all new cars and when the vehicle has reached the point where the manufacturer thinks it's obsolete, they will usually sell of the intellectual property, technical information, etc off to a 3rd party who will continue to manufacturer parts for that line. I see no reason why that won't happen with the Leaf. The Leaf being one of Nissan's most reliable, if not their #1 most reliable car, with only one weakness, there's no reason why someone won't come in to fill that gap and get those cars back on the road.

I also agree that the heavy depreciation of EVs in general, partially supported by uncertainty of the batteries, is a good thing! Personally, owning an EV would not be possible for me until maybe 5 years in the future, but luckily I can afford one now! This is a great victory for government subsidies, IMO as they helped bring the cost of ownership down and sold more Leafs to begin with.

Here is that company making the 48kwh upgrade:
http://hybridindustries.webs.com/

VitaminJ said:

I also agree that the heavy depreciation of EVs in general, partially supported by uncertainty of the batteries, is a good thing! Personally, owning an EV would not be possible for me until maybe 5 years in the future, but luckily I can afford one now! This is a great victory for government subsidies, IMO as they helped bring the cost of ownership down and sold more Leafs to begin with.

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Amen

Hybrid Industries looks pretty much defunct. The lastest date I could find was January 2014 - three years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't compete with OEM products, and that's what did them in. Or - more optimistically - that's what they wanted in the first place. Once they saw the OEMs jumping in, they figured "mission accomplished" and closed up shop.

GetOffYourGas said:

Jefe said:

Not disposable. These off-lease Leafs are ending up back on the road as heavily-discounted used cars. The result is that a lot more EVs are on the road than if those people just held onto their cars and purchased a new battery pack.

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That's what I just did. Found a good deal on a used 2013 SV, with all the features I wanted, and the slightly less range due to battery degradation didn't bother me. The plus side to the severe depreciation in used LEAFs means it's one of the most affordable EVs. That will hopefully continue to lead to more and more EVs on the road. Even if I decide to replace the battery with a new one at some point, it will still be cheaper than buying a new LEAF if I don't mind keeping the same 24kw battery range, which I don't.

GetOffYourGas said:

Hybrid Industries looks pretty much defunct. The lastest date I could find was January 2014 - three years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't compete with OEM products, and that's what did them in. Or - more optimistically - that's what they wanted in the first place. Once they saw the OEMs jumping in, they figured "mission accomplished" and closed up shop.

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I emailed them a month or so ago and got a reply which seemed to me they were still in business. They were willing to help me do the 48kWh upgrade. The down side is that it would take up to much of the vehicle's weight capacity. The battery would have to be on another set of wheels, in other words, on a trailer, so as to not cripple the usefulness of the Leaf itself.

IssacZachary said:

GetOffYourGas said:

Hybrid Industries looks pretty much defunct. The lastest date I could find was January 2014 - three years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if they couldn't compete with OEM products, and that's what did them in. Or - more optimistically - that's what they wanted in the first place. Once they saw the OEMs jumping in, they figured "mission accomplished" and closed up shop.

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I emailed them a month or so ago and got a reply which seemed to me they were still in business. They were willing to help me do the 48kWh upgrade. The down side is that it would take up to much of the vehicle's weight capacity. The battery would have to be on another set of wheels, in other words, on a trailer, so as to not cripple the usefulness of the Leaf itself.

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As I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=460259#p460259, Hybrid Industries, looks VERY sketchy.

Unfortunately, they've now removed all their images or they're having a site problem w/none of their pics being up anymore.

I still have never heard of anyone who has paid for a successful upgrade from them. If so, I'd like to hear how it's working after at least a year.

A few more years down the road it's more likely that after market battery replacements will be available. There have to be more EVs on the road and the demand for them. Even the original Honda Insight got some after market support, and I can't imagine the Leaf has sold in smaller numbers than the Insight.

I think at the point where people can buy a degraded Leaf up for say a thousand bucks, then there will be some people who find a way to replace the pack and make the car "good as new". It could even be something with more capacity than the original. There's not enough demand for it yet because right now you can just buy a 3 year old off lease Leaf with 85% of its capacity, for no more than a battery replacement would cost.

Nagorak said:

A few more years down the road it's more likely that after market battery replacements will be available. There have to be more EVs on the road and the demand for them. Even the original Honda Insight got some after market support, and I can't imagine the Leaf has sold in smaller numbers than the Insight.

I think at the point where people can buy a degraded Leaf up for say a thousand bucks, then there will be some people who find a way to replace the pack and make the car "good as new". It could even be something with more capacity than the original. There's not enough demand for it yet because right now you can just buy a 3 year old off lease Leaf with 85% of its capacity, for no more than a battery replacement would cost.

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I agree w/most of your points except the very first one.

Yes, Gen 1 Insight sold in small numbers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Insight#Sales seems to have the right numbers as confirmed by http://web.archive.org/web/20160106221906/http://world.honda.com/news/2009/4090218Hybrid-Vehicles/. Leaf sales are about an order of magnitude greater. But, an Insight's battery has tiny capacity compared to a Leaf battery and thus is cheaper.

And, I'm not clear the Insight's resale value fell off so badly and that you could lease Insights for so cheap. And, Insight just like all non-plugin hybrids require no habit change on behalf of the driver and have no range anxiety issues that pure BEVs have, esp. sub-120 mile EPA range ones. No habit change = potentially greater set of buyers.

Some of the players providing refurbished or replacement Honda hybrid battery packs went under. And, I believe they were depending on commodity D cell NiMH batteries vs. this specialized format that Nissan uses: pouches inside rectangular cans.

And, there's the issue of the BMS being inside the pack as well as Nissan controlling various aspects (e.g. pairing of the pack and BMS to the car, presumably with the aid of Consult III+). See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=464841#p464829 and the reply afteward.

I think the real achilles heel of a refurbished EV market are the proprietary battery packs with their associated BMS and software in these cars.

White not impossible, it is hard to anticipate generic drop in parts.

I hope to be proven wrong.

Insurability is another concern. The auto insurance industry hasn't yet figured out that battery capacity is a major portion of an EV's value. Instead, they seem to be treating it like an engine. If you replace the battery, in the adjuster's eyes, all you've done is repaired the vehicle back to its normal function, much like replacing an engine.

I think EV's are a lot more like small airplanes. In something like the ever-popular Cessna 172 (station wagon of the sky), valuation of a 40 year old airplane is largely one of how many hours are left on the engine before manufacturer-recommended overhaul. As you get closer and closer to that time, your value plummets. Spend some kilobucks for an overhaul, and your value pops up considerably. Insurance takes this into consideration. The first question anyone shopping for a small plane asks a seller is how many hours on the engine. The insurance company wants to know this as well and sends me a yearly questionnaire.

The first question we advise prospective used LEAF buyers to ask or find out is how many capacity bars left on the battery, and if LEAFspy, how many Ah.