silverone
Posts: 45
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:29 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2017
Location: Eastern OH

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:09 pm

L1 charging typically maxes out at 12A or 1440 watts. At that rate you'll get 1KW/hr, and will add the number of miles you can accomplish per KW. I haven't had my Leaf long, but in sub 20 degree weather with hills, I've been lucky to get 3mi/kWh. I think 40 miles in 10 hours is optimistic in winter, but likely doable in summer.

sub3marathonman
Posts: 246
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:57 am

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:21 pm

Tsiah wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:You don't seem to understand battery heating or L-1 charging. The battery heater only comes on in single digit Fahrenheit weather, and only uses 300 watts. Preheating the car is entirely separate.


I understand the difference between pre heating the car and heating the battery. I didn't know that it was only a 300 watt heater.
My reading has lead me to believe that if it's cold outside and the car starts running the battery heater and you're on L1 charging, it will use the battery to run the battery heater because the L1 can't keep up with the heater and charging.
On a 20 amp outlet you can only draw 1960W (16A @ 120V) as a continuous load. (According to the NEC anyway) is 1600-1900 watts enough to charge the battery to 40 miles of range in 10 hours? Or am I misunderstanding something here?
The builders who built my house screwed me there anyway...I only have a 15A circuit out in the garage.


Somewhat I don't understand the battery heating in the newer LEAFs either. Will the L1 EVSE then draw more electricity to continue charging the battery at the original L1 rate, or will the charging rate of the newer LEAF be decreased by 300 watts? Which would be concerning since it is also my understanding that the LEAF itself is using about 300 watts during any charging event, L1, L2 or L3.

Most here calculate about 4.5 to 5 miles per hour, or 1kw per hour, of L1 charging, the range increase per hour is thus dependent on your driving efficiency. I'm usually at about 5.3 miles / kwh.

Also, I think the 15A circuit is generally the accepted procedure. It would be prudent though to have a competent electrician check the wiring gauge for the circuit, as I thought it was now common practice to run 12 gauge wiring as opposed to 14 gauge wiring, and it would be possible it could be upgraded to a 20A circuit with just switching the circuit breaker. I don't know if it would require a permit, or another inspection, but anything done has to remain NEC code compliant, as they would also have to recalculate the capacity of the entire panel to be sure it remained compliant.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 5429
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:26 pm

My reading has lead me to believe that if it's cold outside and the car starts running the battery heater and you're on L1 charging, it will use the battery to run the battery heater because the L1 can't keep up with the heater and charging.


This is partially true. It's true for both the battery heater and the cabin heater, but the battery heater is, again, only 300 watts. You've read about people having trouble preheating the cabin with L-1 because of the net loss of charge. My solution to that has been to preheat for only 2 or 3 minutes, losing 2-3% net charge while gaining a tolerable cabin temp and warm steering wheel. Even with my car always sitting exposed to North winds in Upstate NY, the battery heater rarely runs, because it only comes on when the pack temperature is in the single digits - not the air temp. If you are using the car daily and charging with L-1, you are likely to never (or at least rarely) have the pack heater come on. It is my belief, unconfirmed but with significant evidence, that charging for many hours with L-1 heats the pack enough to greatly reduce the amount of time the pack heater runs. I doubt that you have read here about anyone not being able to get the car charged because of the pack heater running.

I'm not trying to talk you into getting a Leaf, BTW - I still think it's a bad idea for you. I just want you to understand the situation.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Tsiah
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2017

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:07 pm

Leftie,
Yes this is info from several places online, I don't have a specific source... Just something I had read somewhere in all the stuff I've been reading lately.

I think I will wait for a used 30kWh car to hit the market and to know I have L2 charging at both ends of the commute before I buy.
I may even wait a little longer for the 200 mile range cars to be on the market...But if a 30kWh car will do the job for a few years, I'm going to do that til I can afford the 200 mile range car.
I'm tired of my own talk about reducing emissions when I burn 3 gallons of gas every day. I talk the talk, it's time to back it up with action. ;)

sub3marathonman wrote:
Also, I think the 15A circuit is generally the accepted procedure. It would be prudent though to have a competent electrician check the wiring gauge for the circuit, as I thought it was now common practice to run 12 gauge wiring as opposed to 14 gauge wiring, and it would be possible it could be upgraded to a 20A circuit with just switching the circuit breaker. I don't know if it would require a permit, or another inspection, but anything done has to remain NEC code compliant, as they would also have to recalculate the capacity of the entire panel to be sure it remained compliant.

I am an electrician, most residential wiring is 14awg wire and 15A breakers. Your 2 kitchen circuits are required to be 20A, one 20A laundry circuit and I think bathroom GFCI outlets are required to be 20A now, but I can't remember. 12awg wire is much more difficult to cram into a box than 14awg and it costs more so there's no reason to use 12awg except for the required circuits.
You can not put a 20A breaker on a 14awg wire.

As for the load calculation, I have to see what my service is and see if installing a larger panel (I have a very small panel with no more breaker space) and a 40A 240 outlet in the garage will overload the wires coming from the main breaker...But I think it's fine. Pretty sure it's a 125A service.

jjeff
Posts: 959
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:44 pm

sub3marathonman wrote:
Somewhat I don't understand the battery heating in the newer LEAFs either. Will the L1 EVSE then draw more electricity to continue charging the battery at the original L1 rate, or will the charging rate of the newer LEAF be decreased by 300 watts? Which would be concerning since it is also my understanding that the LEAF itself is using about 300 watts during any charging event, L1, L2 or L3.

Most here calculate about 4.5 to 5 miles per hour, or 1kw per hour, of L1 charging, the range increase per hour is thus dependent on your driving efficiency. I'm usually at about 5.3 miles / kwh.

No the OEM L1 charger will not draw more than 12a, if the 300w battery heater kicks in you'll just have 300w less charging going into the battery. Of course as has been pointed out, the cabin heater draws much more than the 12a@120v than the OEM EVSE puts out, so you'll experience a significant reduction in battery charge preheating in the cold with only L1. In fact I even lose slight charge preheating in the extreme cold with my 16a @240v(~3.8kw) EVSE, I just about break even or ever so slightly gain charge while preheating with my 19a@240v(4.6kw) EVSE.
A Leaf with the 3.6kw charger will only charge at up to 12a @120v(for sure pre '13 Leafs) but newer Leafs with the 6.6kw charger will charge up to 27.5a @120v, of course if your EVSE will go that high on 120v.
In the extreme cold I'm lucky to top 3 miles/kwh and regen is crap :(
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 40a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

Tsiah
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2017

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:10 pm

I don't have a final word, but it quickly went from "were looking into installing EVSE" to "why do people need to drive greener cars? who's asking to charge? As far as I'm concerned, that's stealing electricity from the company. we're not doing it because there's no policy about using it." This coming from the facility electrician and the facilities Supervisor.
It's a bummer that a few uneducated people can throw such a large wrench in the gears. I'm going to try getting more info out there about why I want to charge here, why I want to drive electric and let them know I don't expect to charge for free.

I wouldn't expect responses like that from a mass/public transit company....

Reddy
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:09 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 006828
Location: Pasco, WA

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:33 pm

Tsiah wrote:I don't have a final word, but it quickly went from "were looking into installing EVSE" to "why do people need to drive greener cars? who's asking to charge? As far as I'm concerned, that's stealing electricity from the company. we're not doing it because there's no policy .....

Welcome to the the new reality! Sorry to hear, but not unexpected. At this point you can either become an advocate/champion to get charging installed or wait for the 200+ mi Bolt, Leaf or Tesla. Good luck. Spend some time reading other older threads on this website for more ideas. Basically, workplace charging can be a real bugger, especially anything closely related to government, contractors, ports, municipal districts, etc. If you can find a local upper management champion you might have a chance. Connect with the local EVA and get a few test drives for these people. Always make this a payment system, whether ChargePoint or non-network system with monthly paid parking pass. If you're lucky and very industrious, you might suggest getting funding from the VW settlement https://www.electrifyamerica.com
Reddy
2011 SL; 10 bar, 48.82 AHr; 35,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

Tsiah
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2017

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:47 pm

Indeed. I've been mulling it over since I heard that response. The facilities guy who originally mentioned charging stations to me was appalled at the response he got. He said his boss basically was chewing his ass for even asking.
I heard someone made a stink, demanding the company install charging stations for her to use and it's put this manager in a bad mood about electric car charging.

I'm going to keep working at it. I think my manager will be on my side, but it could still take a while to get the go ahead on installing the equipment.

VitaminJ
Posts: 221
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:46 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 415775
Location: Morrison, CO
Contact: YouTube

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:36 pm

Tsiah, I am basically in the same boat as you. I commute 35 miles each way every day, my ICE car got 28mpg average. I'm over that lifestyle. I've been watching the prices on Leafs falling as well and was immediately attracted to them. After reading lots I pretty much came to the conclusion that I needed a 2013+ SV or SL for the 2nd gen battery and better heater. Accessories like NissanConnectEV for pre-heating/cooling and checking charge status are also something I thought was essential for EV life.

I live in CO, my commute is very up and down, but the start and end elevation are the same. I got my first commute test this morning. I started at 85% charge (120v charging is a dead end) and got to work at 50%, my guesser said that I could go another 47 miles, which means theoretically I could make it back home. I used 4.7kwh/mile to work, but I used 4.3kwh home, I think from faster speeds.

On my lunch break I stopped by the local Nissan dealer (only 1.5 miles from my work luckily) and used the CHAdeMO charger while I went across the street and ate lunch (can't get better than that). After that I had 91%, but then I got home at 50% again so I'm not sure I actually could have made the drive without charging, but I'm pretty confident I could make the drive round-trip if I started at 100%. It was 50F today also, so not really cold at all so no heater just a little heated seats and pre-heating. My car has 28k but I think the battery still has many years of life left.

I was really surprised that the hills don't cause a huge loss of range compared to flat roads. I think I regen 10% or more just on one hill coming into town.

Biggest thing to do is get a Bluetooth OBD reader and Leaf Spy. I checked a handful of cars and they all had different battery health, a couple low miles cars had worse health than some higher mileage cars. I think you want to make sure it has at least 60Ah of capacity still.

Lastly like I said earlier 120v charging is a dead-end IMO. It takes at least 24 hours to charge from 10% charge, at the very least if you can't leave every morning at 100% then the EV is not useful IMO. Installing a 240v 50A line is trivial. From there you can mod your stock Nissan EVSE for 3.3kw charging or buy a 7kw one. My car has the 6.6kw charger and I would definitely recommend you get that. I was surprised at how many free L2 stations are around in my area. There are 3 or 4 around my house and 1 is only 1/2 mile away from my work. Then on top of that there are a bunch of pay stations. Sadly there are only 3 CHAdeMO chargers anywhere near me.

Just my thoughts from an EV newbie who just bought a used sub-$10k Leaf on Saturday.
2013 Ocean Blue SV w/ QC and LED

PM me about converting your 120v EVSE to 240v

LeftieBiker
Posts: 5429
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: EV newbie, still shopping but I love the leaf!

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:12 am

Lastly like I said earlier 120v charging is a dead-end IMO. It takes at least 24 hours to charge from 10% charge,


Sigh. No, it takes about 19 hours to reach 100% from 10%, with another 30 minutes or so for EQ to occur. L-1 doesn't work for people with long commutes, but let's try to keep the facts straight. (This from the guy who told the OP not to buy a 24kwh Leaf.)

A suggestion: ask work to install several 240 volt dryer-type outlets, and require employees who want to charge to provide their own EVSE and pay, say, $20 a month to pay for the wiring and power. That alone would thin the potential herd of charging employees, but it would also allow 2 employees per shift to recharge per outlet. You could then use the EVSE Upgrade service to make your charging cable 240 volts at 16 amps.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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