Cold Weather Leafs

Hi everyone! Thanks for all the great information here. I’m looking for a used Leaf and trying to decide among all the various options that are available. A little bit about me:
1. I have a 15 mile commute each way to work
2. I drive on average 30 miles a day, rarely over 50 miles in a day
3. I live in MN so cold weather is an issue
4. I would have other cars and other drivers in the family, so could keep the Leaf close to home on cold days if necessary.
5. My electric company encourages me to wire the EVSE so that it only works overnight, so during the day I would only have 120V charging

A few general questions for people who live in MN or other cold areas:
1. I’ve been test driving lately in 30-40 degree weather, and the range seems pretty limited. Does the range drop even more when it’s -10 or so? Does it become <20 miles or pretty unusable?
2. Does the heat pump in the SL make a significant difference in the range on cold days? What about the LED headlights? Or the better tires?
3. Has anyone had a good or bad experience from Wayzata Nissan? They sell a heck of a lot of used Leafs. What about Klein Nissan? They have a couple. Any other good place to buy locally?
4. What about snow performance? I would think that the energy saver tires would be really bad.

Most of the extra features of the SL don’t excite me, but I wonder if I should get the heat pump if that gives a significant boost to the range when you need to heat the car.

Any local advice would be greatly appreciated!

We did 129 miles in the Leaf yesterday, but it was in the mid 30's and we charged to 100% twice to make it.

I would say you can do 30 safely, even in snow and with heat a fan level 1, set to 80F, it will never get that warm but it will keep you from freezing, remember pre-heating is your friend Our lowest range is about 40 during heavy snow.

Having a second car helps a lot and takes the worry out of figuring out every last possibility. Yesterday in the middle of the day (cheap electric rates) my wife swapped the Leaf for the TDI and let the Leaf charge to 100 again. So she ran maybe 15 miles in the TDI.

You should be fine with your distances charging only at night, but unless they are giving you a deal on electric rates I wouldn't limit when you can charge. We set our 2013 S to "be done" at 7a, for us from 7a to noon is high rate and noon to 5 is low and then 5p to 8p is high rate again.

For tires, we run Bridgstone Blizzak WS 80s in winter, the stock tires were like ice skates Although now we have Michelin Defenders as summers as the ecopias were down to 2 mil at 13k, never again.

Hopefully jjeff or another MN drive will chime in on dealers

Oh I should add we have the S so we only have resistant heating, but the heat pump should help in temps 20'ish and above. Although we have found running the heat at 80F fan level one pulls 4000w initially (for about 3 minutes) then about 1000w max cycling on and off depending on outside temps.

bongo2 said:

1. I have a 15 mile commute each way to work
2. I drive on average 30 miles a day, rarely over 50 miles in a day

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That doesn't sound impossible.

bongo2 said:

3. I live in MN so cold weather is an issue

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I live in Colorado in the mountains and so far the Leaf has been great! There are lots of tips and tricks here for heating a Leaf efficiently and I feel they help a lot. I've done 50 miles in cloudy 20°F off of one charge. Make sure you get a Leaf with a battery heater. Can you plug in at work? Will you be preheating? If you get an SV or SL Leaf (which in the US might need a $200 upgrade due to AT&T shutting down it's 2G service) you can have access to the NissanConnectEV (CarWings) and simply preheat your car from your computer or phone. Or you can mess with the climate control timer function on any Leaf. If you have passengers in the rear, make sure you get a Leaf with rear heated seats.

bongo2 said:

4. I would have other cars and other drivers in the family, so could keep the Leaf close to home on cold days if necessary.

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Then get a Leaf. I'm looking to make my Leaf my only car. So far I haven't used my other car except once when we went to visit my parents-in-law 600 miles from here. But ever since November the rest of the time we've only driven the Leaf. But if you are going to purposely have a second vehicle and use the Leaf for your short trips then that would seem to be a no brainer.

bongo2 said:

5. My electric company encourages me to wire the EVSE so that it only works overnight, so during the day I would only have 120V charging

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I love having 240V charging at any time I want. If I'm running low in the morning I charge up for an hour during lunch. I made sure I got a 6.6kW onboard charger Leaf.

bongo2 said:

1. I’ve been test driving lately in 30-40 degree weather, and the range seems pretty limited. Does the range drop even more when it’s -10 or so? Does it become <20 miles or pretty unusable?

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I've driven at -20°F and didn't notice it dropping horribly. I park outside. I also set my charging timer to finish charging just before the climate control timer comes on in the morning. That helps warm the battery before my drive. 30 miles is definitely doable. Then I follow many of the cold weather tips that are in this website.

bongo2 said:

2. Does the heat pump in the SL make a significant difference in the range on cold days? What about the LED headlights? Or the better tires?

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Heat pump: Only if it's not too cold. On those 20°F to 30°F days and nights (especially the nights) it does help reduce the energy consumption. If you're out and about doing short trips like me, then you definitely want a heat pump. But for 15 miles to work and back if you can plug in at each location and preheat and then drive to work or home on minimal heat then you should be fine.

bongo2 said:

3. Has anyone had a good or bad experience from Wayzata Nissan? They sell a heck of a lot of used Leafs. What about Klein Nissan? They have a couple. Any other good place to buy locally?
4. What about snow performance? I would think that the energy saver tires would be really bad.

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There not the greatest tires on snow, that's for sure. I've been using tire chains a lot. Even then I've gotten stuck in the snow a couple of times. Michelin makes a low rolling resistance snow tire. I'd like to get those on another set of rims someday.

I'm in North East Ohio and haven't had my LEAF for very long, but I've driven it in 10F days and now in 50F days. My commute is about 37 miles round trip with no option to recharge during the day and only 120V charging at home (until this weekend). I have a 2015 SV.

1. I do 18.5 miles each way, all highway at 65mph, pretty flat. If your commute is at a lower speed you'll have better efficiency, but I typically see about 30% of the battery used each way with temps in the 20s to 40s. (Sometimes as much as 35%, sometimes as low as 25%)
2. See above. At the end of the day I usually calculate my total range as being between 50 and 70 miles based on my % per mile that day.
3. Ohio can get pretty cold too, but maybe not as bad. I haven't had the battery heaters kick on yet since the pack takes so long to equalize with outside temperatures and I have a garage (min I saw was 2 bars, max was 5)
4. If you can swap out cars on the super cold days then that shouldn't be an issue. I haven't needed to yet, as I've had >20% remaining no matter the weather so far (no heavy snow yet though)
5. It only takes 4 hours or so to recharge on 240V and the car has a built in timer. If you leave at the same time every day, just plug it in at night and set it to finish charging 15-30 minutes before you leave. You don't want to leave it at 100% all the time. I only have 120V charging all the time right now and it's been fine.

Other questions:
1. Range continues dropping as temps drop. The SV and SL models have the heat pump (not just the SL) but that stops being all that helpful below 20F or so.
2. As above, the heat pump (SV and SL for model years 2013+, doesn't exist for <2013) helps the most at moderate temperatures between 30 and 60. I can't speak for LED vs non LED lights, I have the LEDs and they use maybe 200 watts (the motor uses 20,000 watts at highway speeds). The halogens maybe use twice that amount, which is still pretty inconsequential. Better tires help range (and so does inflating them higher), but snow tires will hurt it.
3. Can't comment on dealers as I'm not local.
4. We haven't had heavy snows yet, but it's been fine on the slushy days. My 2002 civic even with good all-season tires was terrible in the snow so I'm pretty used to having to deal with driving in the snow.

Remember, SV and SL have the heat pump. I no longer care about running the heater for my 36 mile commute. I just set it to 65F and 1 or 2 bars on the fan and flip to defrost if the windshield starts fogging. You get LED headlights on the SV if you also get the quick charge package, which is pretty worth having just in case you need it, but I wouldn't pay way more if you don't really care about it. 2015s get the TCU upgrade free. And definitely make sure to use LeafSpy on any Leaf you might be interested in purchasing, since 12 bars on the dash is anywhere between 100% health and 85% health.

All 2012+ (corrected from 2013, see next post, thanks) years have battery heaters that kick in automatically and use 300 watts when the pack hits 5F until it warms to 14F.

Some generally useful resources: Used Leaf Buying Guide (describes differences between model years and trims), PlugShare (to check for charging locations you might be able to use in emergencies), and the Range Chart (there's also an android app that works really well called "Nissan Leaf Range Estimator")

magico13 said:

All 2013+ years have battery heaters that kick in automatically and use 300 watts when the pack hits 5F until it warms to 14F.

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Minor correction: All 2012+ Leafs have the battery heater. It is also present on certain 2011 Leafs, with the "Cold Weather Package". You can easily identify whether a 2011 has this package by whether it also has heated seats.

While not in MN, I have seen temps dip below 0F in the Chicagoland area. Basically the range at these temps causes the following:
1) Range reduction by 50%
2) Heater unable to keep up (blows cold air) - workaround is to set the fan to a lower speed to let some heat through the coils and also to reduce energy consumption.

With a 37 mile commute you should be fine with a used Leaf that's down 1 capacity bar for years to come. Also, I recommend a L2 EVSE at your home. Preheating will consume more energy than a L1 can keep up with while you're plugged in and you'll appreciate the quicker recharging times.

Re: dealers, I did speak with Wayzata once, however the most important item to know is that all dealers buy used leafs at auction and they could come from a hot climate with severe battery degradation. When buying used, Leafspy (when local) and a picture of the dashboard capacity bars (when dealing remotely withe salesmen) are your friends. Also important is carfax to see the location history of the vehicle and to see if by some small change it had it's battery replaced.

Good luck!

bongo2 said:

Hi everyone! Thanks for all the great information here. I’m looking for a used Leaf and trying to decide among all the various options that are available. A little bit about me:
1. I have a 15 mile commute each way to work
2. I drive on average 30 miles a day, rarely over 50 miles in a day
3. I live in MN so cold weather is an issue
4. I would have other cars and other drivers in the family, so could keep the Leaf close to home on cold days if necessary.
5. My electric company encourages me to wire the EVSE so that it only works overnight, so during the day I would only have 120V charging

A few general questions for people who live in MN or other cold areas:
1. I’ve been test driving lately in 30-40 degree weather, and the range seems pretty limited. Does the range drop even more when it’s -10 or so? Does it become <20 miles or pretty unusable?
2. Does the heat pump in the SL make a significant difference in the range on cold days? What about the LED headlights? Or the better tires?
3. Has anyone had a good or bad experience from Wayzata Nissan? They sell a heck of a lot of used Leafs. What about Klein Nissan? They have a couple. Any other good place to buy locally?
4. What about snow performance? I would think that the energy saver tires would be really bad.

Most of the extra features of the SL don’t excite me, but I wonder if I should get the heat pump if that gives a significant boost to the range when you need to heat the car.

Any local advice would be greatly appreciated!

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I agree with whats been said. 30 miles should be basically doable in all conditions, just barely in sub zero temps(yes sub zero is worse than single digits which is worse than teens, which is worse than 20s) the colder the weather the worse the range but I've never seen worse than 30-35 miles and that was below zero with blizzard winds in the snow, and I have a '13S model, I would not suggest a '12 for several reasons.
I'm fine with the S model but when it's in the upper to 20s-40s I'd probably like the SV/SL more with it's heat pump. In very cold temps it doesn't matter at all, both will just use the very power hungry resistive heater which works surprisingly well, especially if you preheat. Note preheating with L1 loses several percent charge, you really need L2 and at least 20a to get good preheating without losing charge in bitter cold.
With any Leaf you can specify when to charge but timer setting is easier on a SV/SL and in your case I'd probably suggest something like a WiFi Juicebox where you can also program your EVSE to only run during select times. If you did get a S model FOR SURE get one that has the upgraded charger(6.6kw) and not the measly 3.6kw charger, along with that get a 6.6kw or greater EVSE, preferably one with a nice rubbery cord as some of the cheaper ones work great in CA or TX but get stiff as a board when the temps get near 0. I believe Juicebox now uses a rubber cord, the one I bought several years ago used a orange cord that gets quite stiff when it gets cold. OK for a 30 degree garage but NOT outside use in MN.

Wayzata Nissan is great, it's where I bought my second Leaf, a '12 SL(which in hindsight I kind of regret but that wasn't the dealers fault) it's just Nissan made several good changes in '13 and I really miss them on my '12. Oh for your use I'd really suggest a 12 or full bar car, I got a great deal on my '12 but it's missing 2 bars and it would NOT make your commute in sub zero temps, probably be just fine in 20s and above but not extreme cold. Also the '12's and older have a much poorer heater, it's liquid based and takes a long time to heat and never really heats that warm. I haven't used Klein Nissan, Wayzata I believe is the largest seller of used Leafs in the US, they ship to other areas, when I was there the other day they were shipping cars to Iowa and Canada, living in the Twin Cities were pretty lucky for used Leafs.

My original Ecopia tires wore out at 20k, I replaced them with a set of the same but better than OEM, Ecopia+. They are "OK" in the winter, it helps the Leaf is somewhat heavy and has a low center of gravity, I'd have preferred Michelin Defender tires but they were ~$100 more and I was already a bit shocked by the $500 for the Ecopia's so I stuck with those. My '12 has almost new tires, probably purchased in L.A. where the car came from by previous owner, they are summer tires and WORTHLESS in the show and ice, VERY bad. I should really do something with them but because they are almost new I'd hate to dispose of them, would feel bad selling them to anyone else in MN and just don't want to spend another $500 on tires.....I've thought about winter tires(Michelin X-ice3) but don't want to spend the $80 each year to swap the tires with my summer tires nor do I want to spend money on steel rims and TPS and just swap them out myself. I'll probably be forced to do something at some point but I'm not looking forward to the expense. You don't really need snow tires but I've been told they help, for sure I'd never purchase summer tires, in MN we really need a minimum of A/S tires.

Another Coloradan here.
Car heating can use up a lot of range; you have to have an idea of what you will tolerate.

E.g., I wear gloves and heat the seat. That is enough for me to not use the cabin heater, be reasonably comfortable, and take a 10-20% hit in range. My wife gets in the car and first hits defrost and heat. I bet she reduces range by 50%

Thanks everyone. This is great information and very helpful.

we have found running the heat at 80F fan level one pulls 4000w initially (for about 3 minutes) then about 1000w max cycling on and off depending on outside temps.

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If that's accurate, am I correct that heating up the car and then driving for 20 mins only pulls around 0.5 kwh, while driving 15 miles will be around 5 kwh. Given that the heat pump would take some energy also it doesn't seem like there would be tremendous savings with that.

The reason that I was thinking I should get the overnight charging is that my electric company charges 0.044 / kwh if you wire your charger so that it only works from 11pm to 7am. If you use time-of-use rating you get 0.067 / kwh at night and weekends, 0.12 / kwh from 8am to 6pm, and then 0.41/kwh (!!!) from 6pm to 9pm. I thought I would go with the overnight charging partly because I didn't want to accidentally start charging at 6pm and pay 0.41/khw. Maybe I should pay a little bit more and get the time of use. Can you program the Leaf so that it will never charge during some times, or do you have to program it each time you plug it in?

If I had to guess I would say a Leaf with a heat pump (2013 SL or SV) would use about half the power for the exact same setting as the resistance heater at 30F, the warmer it is the better off you would be with the heat pump model. We used to never turn the heat on, but now just leave it at fan 1 and at 80F. The comfort is worth it for us, again this doesn't warm the whole car up like if you run the fan at 3 or higher, but it takes the edge off and keeps your feet from freezing. If I recall it was about 50% on and 50% off at 30F with full fresh air. At about 0F it just runs flat out at about 1000w and varies between. Also turning on re-circ or partial re-circ reduces the time the heater will be on, but at the cost of window fogging and then having to turn the fan up higher and using 100% fresh air, it is a balancing game I play

We are at about $.06 for our off peak rates, we don't have a super off peak rate option. I would probably go the connected rout and get the lower rate as long as you have the bigger on board charger.

In the S you can only set the end time and I have never seen it pass this time, more often it is done way before this time. You would be safe with 6 kw on board charger and 11p to 7a even from empty, it would never start before 11p, with a 3.3 charger if it was really dead it might start before 11p.

With the SV & SL I believe you can set the window or a start and stop time, but I am not familiar with that, honestly I like the simple, "be done by" time setting on the S.

When we charge during the day we just hit the time ever ride button.

And yes in a pinch you could use the 120vac EVSE at other times if you needed to.

I also like to set my temp high(I use 77 fwiw) and fan speed of 1, or 2 if 1 can't keep the windows clear of frost/fog.
The Leaf charging timer isn't fancy and doesn't allow times to not charge(unless Leafs hooked to the internet have more features....) but mine only allows me to set a departure time, that is I set it for 7am and depending on SOC the charging will start sometime before that and be charged about an hour before 7am. The Climate Control timer is similar, set it for 7am and it will be toasty warm by 7am(starts 1/2hr before departure time) but if I leave late(say 7:15) it will have cooled down considerably as it stops heating at 7am.
I believe the smart EVSEs like the better Juicebox allow one to specify start/stop times but I have no first hand experience as my Juicebox is dumb one.

I live in Upstate NY, where some Winters are mild but others it gets well below 0F. What's already been said largely covers it, but I'll add one tip and a strong suggestion.

* In temps below 20-25F, use "partial recirculate" with the climate control set to 75-80F, the fan set to 1 or 2 (2 will be needed if the air isn't very dry), and the vent set to floor only. Partial recirculate is activated by first selecting Recirculate, then pressing the same button a second time, and holding it for exactly 2 seconds. The Recirculate indicator light will flash twice and go out, but the mode will be partial recirculate. This will allow enough fresh air in to keep the windshield clear, but will recirculate enough air to lower energy use by the heater. This can't be done with the actual Defrost modes because they don't allow Recirculate to be engaged, but Floor Only will still blow some air on the windshield.

* Don't buy an 11 bar Leaf. If you can't use LeafSpy, then assume one less bar than is showing, because the car could be about to lose one. If you really want to be able to comfortably drive 30 miles in subzero weather, get LeafSpy and the correct ODBII port reader, and wait for a car that shows at least 90-92% state of health (SOH). My 2013 SV has 87% SOH, and will just barely go 45-50 miles in frigid weather, while driving at 30-50MPH, heat set as above, and an electric fleece blanket over my lap and legs.

you can set recurring charging timers (by day) on all models of the Leaf. definitely take advantage for off peak charging. Once your car is charged there's no harm leaving the cable connected and using the wall power for about 10 min of preheating even with on-peak rates. that variance is insignificant.

Preheat with the car plugged in is really the way to go no matter what.

Even in super freezing below zero weather the preheater will warm up the car plenty warm. Part of the reason is that it switches back and forth from fresh to recirculation as it preheats to both get some fresh air to blow out moisture and also to run more efficiently by recirculating.

Once warmed up you can go 15 miles with no heater, except just enough to keep the windows defrosted, even in sub-zero temperatures. Do this both going to and from work and you'll have more than plenty of range.

I purchased mine from Wayzata Nissan and had it shipped to Colorado. I was cautious at first but worked with Sam Ghandour and was treated very fairly. They did everything they said they would do in a timely manner which is all I can ask. Don't waste your time much with negotiation, they use a best and only price philosophy.