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IssacZachary
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Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
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Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:19 pm

Ok, here's some math for you.

So you say you'd start your first part of the trip climbing 1200ft for 18 miles through small town traffic of speeds between 35 and 45mph. Then you hit a downhill slope that's a 2,200ft drop for the next 16miles on a 55mph highway.

The in town energy use can vary a lot depending on how many stops. For me, I seem to average about 3.5mi/kWh through town, no heat or A/C, on flat ground. At that rate, plus the 1,200ft rise, you'd use 7.14kWh (about 36% of your battery) for the first 18 miles. If you don't have many stops you might be able to use as little as only 6kWh (about 30% of your battery). On a rough day pushing through snow you'd use around 9.2kWh (or about 46% of your battery) to get to the top.

Next, you'd go down 2,200ft for 16 miles at 55mph. That's plenty steep enough to have to use regen braking. If you do 55mph or less and the grade is pretty consistent you might come out even at the bottom. Or you might use about 1.72kWh (9%). Of course snow and AC or heater use could change that. Say you're going through some snow and such, you could use 2.7kWh (14%) or more.

So you get to work, best case scenario likely being about 7.72kWh or 39% battery use, and worse case scenario being about 11.9kWh, or 60% battery use. You'd have 10 hours to charge up another 50%, so you'd have either a full battery or pretty close by the time it's time to go home.

Now on the way back things will be different. You'd have to first climb 2,200ft for 16 miles. That would suck up at least around 7.22kWh (36%). Or in worse weather, perhaps 8.24kWh (42%) or more. So you obviously need to charge at work to make it.

Next would be the small town traffic. With your small town traffic you'd likely use around 3.14kWh (16%) with no heat or AC. Or around 6.2kWh (29%) through bad weather.

So you'd need anywhere from 10.3kWh or 53% to 14.4kWh or 71% to make it back home.

Conclusion

No heat, no AC, no snow, driving sensibly, you're looking at getting to work with 61% battery capacity still left (41% if you charged to only 80%) and then getting home with 8% if you didn't charge at work (100% from home), or you could charge up to 100% or 80% at work and get home with 47% or 27% respectively.

So a worse case scenario would be (assuming you charged to 100% knowing it's going to be winter) you'd use 60% to get there, only able to charge to 90% at work, and then get back home with 19% still left.

If you could get a 240V EVSE at your place of work you could always charge to 100% and allways have enough to make it home with 29% or more left on the battery. Or if there were a 240V somewhere on the edge of the small town, about half way between you and your job, you'd be set for just about the worse of the worse case scenarios, even after you lose three battery bars. You could also wait another couple hours at work waiting for the snow to settle down in such a worse case scenario and at the same time finish up charging to 100%.

Conclusion of the conclusion

If you can charge at work, even off of 120V, you should be able to get to your work or home with at least a 29% charge left in a worse case blizzard scenario. And I'm calculating off of my experience with subzero, Coloradan, blizzard weather, so you'd probably never even reach the 29% I calculated, and always make it home with plenty more. That would mean even after the battery degrades down to 9 bars, you'd still have enough range left to make the trip.
2013 SL, 40,000 miles, 12 bars.

offtosleep
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:33 pm
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Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:31 pm

IssacZachary wrote:Ok, here's some math for you.

So you say you'd start your first part of the trip climbing 1200ft for 18 miles through small town traffic of speeds between 35 and 45mph. Then you hit a downhill slope that's a 2,200ft drop for the next 16miles on a 55mph highway.

The in town energy use can vary a lot depending on how many stops. For me, I seem to average about 3.5mi/kWh through town, no heat or A/C, on flat ground. At that rate, plus the 1,200ft rise, you'd use 7.14kWh (about 36% of your battery) for the first 18 miles. If you don't have many stops you might be able to use as little as only 6kWh (about 30% of your battery). On a rough day pushing through snow you'd use around 9.2kWh (or about 46% of your battery) to get to the top.

Next, you'd go down 2,200ft for 16 miles at 55mph. That's plenty steep enough to have to use regen braking. If you do 55mph or less and the grade is pretty consistent you might come out even at the bottom. Or you might use about 1.72kWh (9%). Of course snow and AC or heater use could change that. Say you're going through some snow and such, you could use 2.7kWh (14%) or more.

So you get to work, best case scenario likely being about 7.72kWh or 39% battery use, and worse case scenario being about 11.9kWh, or 60% battery use. You'd have 10 hours to charge up another 50%, so you'd have either a full battery or pretty close by the time it's time to go home.

Now on the way back things will be different. You'd have to first climb 2,200ft for 16 miles. That would suck up at least around 7.22kWh (36%). Or in worse weather, perhaps 8.24kWh (42%) or more. So you obviously need to charge at work to make it.

Next would be the small town traffic. With your small town traffic you'd likely use around 3.14kWh (16%) with no heat or AC. Or around 6.2kWh (29%) through bad weather.

So you'd need anywhere from 10.3kWh or 53% to 14.4kWh or 71% to make it back home.

Conclusion

No heat, no AC, no snow, driving sensibly, you're looking at getting to work with 61% battery capacity still left (41% if you charged to only 80%) and then getting home with 8% if you didn't charge at work (100% from home), or you could charge up to 100% or 80% at work and get home with 47% or 27% respectively.

So a worse case scenario would be (assuming you charged to 100% knowing it's going to be winter) you'd use 60% to get there, only able to charge to 90% at work, and then get back home with 19% still left.

If you could get a 240V EVSE at your place of work you could always charge to 100% and allways have enough to make it home with 29% or more left on the battery. Or if there were a 240V somewhere on the edge of the small town, about half way between you and your job, you'd be set for just about the worse of the worse case scenarios, even after you lose three battery bars. You could also wait another couple hours at work waiting for the snow to settle down in such a worse case scenario and at the same time finish up charging to 100%.

Conclusion of the conclusion

If you can charge at work, even off of 120V, you should be able to get to your work or home with at least a 29% charge left in a worse case blizzard scenario. And I'm calculating off of my experience with subzero, Coloradan, blizzard weather, so you'd probably never even reach the 29% I calculated, and always make it home with plenty more. That would mean even after the battery degrades down to 9 bars, you'd still have enough range left to make the trip.



AWESOME!!! That is reassuring! Especially with the mathematical explanation. Are these calculations based on a 24kwh battery or the 30kwh?

I should know more Monday when I check out the facility to with charging in mind :)

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IssacZachary
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Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:54 pm

offtosleep wrote:AWESOME!!! That is reassuring! Especially with the mathematical explanation. Are these calculations based on a 24kwh battery or the 30kwh?

I should know more Monday when I check out the facility to with charging in mind :)


Off of the 24kWh battery. I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5mi/kWh plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. Actually I tweaked the 4.5mi/kWh down to 3.5mi/kWh for town and 2.5mi/kWh town and 3.5mi/kWh highway for severe weather, which is about what I see here in terrible weather (and we got like 5ft of snow and temps down to -36*F this winter)

The 30kWh would keep going with even more battery degradation. If you plan on doing this and keeping the car for the next 10 years you might want to consider a 30kWh Leaf. Like I said before, also make sure you get a heat pump SV or SL. Avoid the S since it will use a lot more electricity to heat during the winter. And with such long work days, chances are you'll be driving at night and need heat.
Last edited by IssacZachary on Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2013 SL, 40,000 miles, 12 bars.

offtosleep
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:33 pm
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Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:29 pm

IssacZachary wrote:
offtosleep wrote:AWESOME!!! That is reassuring! Especially with the mathematical explanation. Are these calculations based on a 24kwh battery or the 30kwh?

I should know more Monday when I check out the facility to with charging in mind :)


Off of the 24kWh battery. I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5kWh per mile plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. Actually I tweaked the 4.5kWh down to 3.5kWh for town and 2.5kWh town and 3.5kWh highway for severe weather, which is about what I see here in terrible weather (and we got like 5ft of snow and temps down to -36*F this winter)

The 30kWh would keep going with even more battery degradation. If you plan on doing this and keeping the car for the next 10 years you might want to consider a 30kWh Leaf. Like I said before, also make sure you get a heat pump SV or SL. Avoid the S since it will use a lot more electricity to heat during the winter. And with such long work days, chances are you'll be driving at night and need heat.



Would it be doable with an S model? The SL AND SV models are hard to locate for a reasonable amount of money.

offtosleep
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:33 pm
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Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:30 pm

IssacZachary wrote:
offtosleep wrote:AWESOME!!! That is reassuring! Especially with the mathematical explanation. Are these calculations based on a 24kwh battery or the 30kwh?

I should know more Monday when I check out the facility to with charging in mind :)


Off of the 24kWh battery. I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5kWh per mile plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. Actually I tweaked the 4.5kWh down to 3.5kWh for town and 2.5kWh town and 3.5kWh highway for severe weather, which is about what I see here in terrible weather (and we got like 5ft of snow and temps down to -36*F this winter)

The 30kWh would keep going with even more battery degradation. If you plan on doing this and keeping the car for the next 10 years you might want to consider a 30kWh Leaf. Like I said before, also make sure you get a heat pump SV or SL. Avoid the S since it will use a lot more electricity to heat during the winter. And with such long work days, chances are you'll be driving at night and need heat.



This may be an impossible question to answer, but how many years of this drive do you think I could get out of one of these vehicles?

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IssacZachary
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Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:29 pm

offtosleep wrote:Would it be doable with an S model? The SL AND SV models are hard to locate for a reasonable amount of money.

I think so. The S uses about twice as much electricity to heat itself from what I understand. So if you use 3kWh (15%) of your battery in an S to heat yourself all the way to work it likely would have only taken 1.5 kWh (7.5%) in an SV or SL (2013 or newer of course.)

The longevity depends mainly on ambient/battery heat, your warranty, if you'd be willing to spend $6,000 on a dealer battery, and if any aftermarket solutions ever come about.
2013 SL, 40,000 miles, 12 bars.

offtosleep
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Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:43 pm

As long as the SOH shows 12 bars, does it really matter what year I get?

SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:49 pm

IssacZachary wrote: I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5kWh per mile plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. .

I think I was the first to flip this number :D
Should be 4.5 miles per kWh

OP may want to visit your thread to get a handle on the calcs. The change in elevation portion may not be intuitive, and is NET change.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

offtosleep
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Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:33 pm
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Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:53 pm

SageBrush wrote:
IssacZachary wrote: I did this with Sagebrush's calculations of 4.5kWh per mile plus 0.5kWh every 300ft of climb. .

I think I was the first to flip this number :D
Should be 4.5 miles per kWh

OP may want to visit your thread to get a handle on the calcs. The change in elevation portion may not be intuitive, and is NET change.



That's where I'm confused. The calculations are NOT intuitive since I'm new to this stuff.

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IssacZachary
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Re: Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:00 pm

offtosleep wrote:As long as the SOH shows 12 bars, does it really matter what year I get?


2011 and 2012 had the worst heaters, level 2 charging speeds (8 hours) and battery degradation (although if you find one with 12 bars it might have a new battery.) Early 2013's have the same battery, but better heaters, although the S's aren't as good as the SV's and SL's as far as heating goes but still better than the 2011's and 2012's. Most S's still retain the slower "8 hour" Level 2 chargers, but from now on the SV's and SL's have a "4 hour" level 2 charger. April and newer 2013's have a better battery. 2014's dropped the 80% feature. 2015's and newer supposedly have an even better battery. 2016 and 2017's have the 30kWh option with the SL's and SV's. Any year could have a CHAdeMO port or not, so ask if that's important to you.
2013 SL, 40,000 miles, 12 bars.

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