LeftieBiker
Posts: 6319
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:28 pm

The Leaf is not going to be as fun to drive as the Caymen, People make a big deal about the torque in the electric cars but the Leaf is a slow car no mater what some people will claim. It does take over 10 seconds to get from 0-60. The truth is that most people never floor the gas pedal of their cars as they drive in traffic and never feel how fast their cars really are.


You need to make a distinction between city and highway acceleration. The Leaf is faster from 0-30MPH than most cars (and motorcycles), and the ease of getting that power to the pavement makes it easy to shock idiots in loud 400+HP cars like Mustangs, that require some finesse to get to speed from a full stop - finesse that most of the drivers lack. Trying to get a Leaf from 40 to 60MPH, though, that's another story - you really feel the lack of horsepower. Still, for people who mainly drive at lower speeds the Leaf is quite peppy. And, amusingly, a Leaf will still easily outrun a Bolt. ;-)
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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kikbuti
Forum Supporter
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:28 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Apr 2017
Leaf Number: 311978
Location: Cincinnati, OH

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:39 am

I just bought a used 2016 Leaf SL with Premium Package. The Bose audio does sound better and the surround view camera is a nice feature. If you're spending 20 to 30K on a car, why quibble over a few hundred bucks. I chose the 2016 for the bigger battery and greater range. You can get them on nissanusa.com. Search for Certified Pre-Owned and search the entire country. If you find what you want, you can have it shipped for less than a buck a mile. CPOs come with great benefits including warranty, dirt cheap financing and rebates on Leafs. I had planned to purchase a CPO but I took a chance on one that I found at CarMax with 400 miles on it. It seems to be okay except signs of paintwork repair on the driver's door.

I like responsive ICE cars too. I also just leased a supercharged and turbocharged 300HP+ Volvo. Love it. But then there always seems to be a need for a second car. Had a Leaf before I retired and loved it for commuting. No gasoline fill-ups. No stink. Hardly any maintenance. Plug it in at night and you're good to go for another 100 miles.
2013 Cayenne Red Leaf SL ordered April 3rd Delivered April 17, 2013 2-yr lease ended

2016 Pearl White Leaf SL Premium April 14, 2017
Siemens VersiCharge 240V 30A EVSE

2017 Volvo XC60 Inscription

4CloverLeaf
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:23 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Mar 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:05 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
You need to make a distinction between city and highway acceleration. The Leaf is faster from 0-30MPH than most cars (and motorcycles), and the ease of getting that power to the pavement makes it easy to shock idiots in loud 400+HP cars like Mustangs, that require some finesse to get to speed from a full stop - finesse that most of the drivers lack. Trying to get a Leaf from 40 to 60MPH, though, that's another story - you really feel the lack of horsepower. Still, for people who mainly drive at lower speeds the Leaf is quite peppy. And, amusingly, a Leaf will still easily outrun a Bolt. ;-)


I somewhat agree and disagree with the above. I agree that the Leaf is better at slow speeds then high speeds and that it has plenty of power driving around. I disagree that you are going to "shock idiots in loud 400+HP cars". You are not going to be shocking them at all. You may annoy them when you dart out in a Leaf while they accelerate at a normal speed but this is like passing a car on the highway and thinking that makes your car faster. Of course a Leaf at 100% throttle accelerates faster then a 400+HP mustang at 15% throttle. However, if the Mustang driver wants to, they can floor the gas pedal and be right by the Leaf at any moment. This is kind of what I was talking about before when I wrote that people don't normally drive at the limits of their cars ability. That mustang owner probably does not use more then 50% throttle very often. Most people don't. When you drive around in traffic, you probably use between 50-100HP most of the time. The Leaf has over 100HP, so you won't feel too strained unless you are on a short highway entrance ramp or something similar. Accelerating from a stop light faster then a high HP car in traffic only means that the Leaf is using more power then the high HP car is. Pretending that the Leaf is faster because the Leaf driver used more power is a little silly though. If a 400+HP Mustang uses all 400HP, it will accelerate to 60MPH in the 4s. A Leaf could have a full 5 second head start and it would still be slower when both cars use maximum power to accelerate to get to highway speeds. I think that some people convince themselves that the Leaf is fast because with an electric car they sometimes floor the accelerator pedal because it is quite and smooth while they never floored the pedal in their ICE car because it was loud and made them nervous. That is kind of what I was getting at when I wrote that most people never experience their cars limits. For example, I had my wife floor her new car before she bought it and she did it for about one second before kindly informing me that it was excessive, loud, and made her nervous something was going to break or a police officer would see her. I had her floor the pedal of the Leaf after I bought it and she kept it floored until she got up to about 55MPH and then told me she liked how quite and smooth it was. For her, that makes the Leaf feel fast as she will use 100% throttle in it but not her ICE car.

BranchingOut
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:19 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Apr 2017

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:01 pm

Thanks for your additional thoughts everyone.

@4CloverLeaf: You've pretty much nailed my line of thinking as well. As for grippy tires, I just like having traction and would rather carry the momentum around corners and curves than brake and engage throttle as a majority of the population seems to love to do (hit the brake at the first opportunity instead of coasting) - may have something to do with not having learned to drive using a manual transmission but I digress. Maybe it's just PNW drivers :)

I test drove the Bolt and the Leaf. I must say the Bolt feels more responsive and handles like a fun car around turns and curves.

Bolt:
+ Carplay integration.
+ Handles way better, more available battery means I can flog the car a bit and not have range anxiety. Also better turning radius than Leaf
+ Comfortable driving position for someone at 6'3"
+ Way better steering feel: both the weight and feedback from the road
+ The bolt screen on dash felt nicer and felt I was getting more feedback about battery use

- Not necessarily a negative but being first generation and just having shown up, not much in terms of incentives
- Interior is very cheap (granted I wasn't in premium but that has better seats) and it shows
- No free 2 year charging that the Leaf comes with


Leaf:
+ Way better value for money. Ran numbers through Excel and no matter how I slice it, Leaf wins
+ Opened the boot and at first (and 2nd, 3rd, 4th) glance looks like the Leaf has more room
+ Less road noise (or maybe the roads were less awful) than the Bolt
+ Free 2 year charging is nice to have

- No carplay
- Steering feels absolutely awful
- Brakes felt soft and mushy

Overall all things being equal (which they rarely are), the Bolt is way more fun to drive (handling, steering, braking, acceleration) and looks better than the outdated Leaf design. However, the 2 year lease I'm looking is not bad and the Leaf is definitely more value for my money. At this point, I'm leaning towards the Leaf and will sleep on it.

The Kia Soul EV felt very cramped and just plain meh.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6319
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:14 pm

I disagree that you are going to "shock idiots in loud 400+HP cars". You are not going to be shocking them at all. You may annoy them when you dart out in a Leaf while they accelerate at a normal speed but this is like passing a car on the highway and thinking that makes your car faster. Of course a Leaf at 100% throttle accelerates faster then a 400+HP mustang at 15% throttle. However, if the Mustang driver wants to, they can floor the gas pedal and be right by the Leaf at any moment. This is kind of what I was talking about before when I wrote that people don't normally drive at the limits of their cars ability. That mustang owner probably does not use more then 50% throttle very often. Most people don't. When you drive around in traffic, you probably use between 50-100HP most of the time. The Leaf has over 100HP, so you won't feel too strained unless you are on a short highway entrance ramp or something similar. Accelerating from a stop light faster then a high HP car in traffic only means that the Leaf is using more power then the high HP car is. Pretending that the Leaf is faster because the Leaf driver used more power is a little silly though. If a 400+HP Mustang uses all 400HP, it will accelerate to 60MPH in the 4s.


I think there have been too many cases of muscle car drivers "sitting and spinning" while an EV darts ahead, to support your argument. Unless 15% of throttle has gotten a lot louder and smokier than it used to be, I think you're just assuming that all of them have traction control (and use it) or that all the MC drivers are experts, as opposed to just being able to make the payments on fast, loud cars. Not around here. I don't do much drag racing at all these days, but just this last week a very loud, very aggressive Mustang tried to use horsepower to get out of an ending right lane after a traffic light and ahead of me, instead of just turning in behind me like a rational being. Judging by his behavior after failing, I'm pretty sure that he had in fact been trying to succeed. Your reality may vary.

We now return you to whatever topic this is, already in progress.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

RonDawg
Posts: 2599
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:49 am

BranchingOut wrote:Thanks for your additional thoughts everyone.

@4CloverLeaf: You've pretty much nailed my line of thinking as well. As for grippy tires, I just like having traction and would rather carry the momentum around corners and curves than brake and engage throttle as a majority of the population seems to love to do (hit the brake at the first opportunity instead of coasting) - may have something to do with not having learned to drive using a manual transmission but I digress. Maybe it's just PNW drivers :)

I test drove the Bolt and the Leaf. I must say the Bolt feels more responsive and handles like a fun car around turns and curves.

Bolt:
+ Carplay integration.
+ Handles way better, more available battery means I can flog the car a bit and not have range anxiety. Also better turning radius than Leaf
+ Comfortable driving position for someone at 6'3"
+ Way better steering feel: both the weight and feedback from the road
+ The bolt screen on dash felt nicer and felt I was getting more feedback about battery use

- Not necessarily a negative but being first generation and just having shown up, not much in terms of incentives
- Interior is very cheap (granted I wasn't in premium but that has better seats) and it shows
- No free 2 year charging that the Leaf comes with


Leaf:
+ Way better value for money. Ran numbers through Excel and no matter how I slice it, Leaf wins
+ Opened the boot and at first (and 2nd, 3rd, 4th) glance looks like the Leaf has more room
+ Less road noise (or maybe the roads were less awful) than the Bolt
+ Free 2 year charging is nice to have

- No carplay
- Steering feels absolutely awful
- Brakes felt soft and mushy

Overall all things being equal (which they rarely are), the Bolt is way more fun to drive (handling, steering, braking, acceleration) and looks better than the outdated Leaf design. However, the 2 year lease I'm looking is not bad and the Leaf is definitely more value for my money. At this point, I'm leaning towards the Leaf and will sleep on it.

The Kia Soul EV felt very cramped and just plain meh.


As suggested early in this thread, you may want to consider the updated eGolf with the 35.8 kWH battery when it comes out in a few months. It already has CarPlay and feels more sporty to drive than the Leaf. Prices are expected to be considerably less than the Bolt, though it doesn't have the Bolt's range. The VW Canada spokesman behind the wheel of this updated eGolf (at a VW event in Mallorca) says the car has a 300 km (186 mile) range on the European test cycle, and is expected to have at least 200 km (125 mile) "real world" range:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jp0P3rkcVM

The current 24 kWH eGolf is available in Oregon, but not Washington, but VW is expected to make this a 50 state car when the larger-battery version comes out; they have already announced they will start selling them in Canada for the first time. Other than the battery, there will only be minor changes between the current and new model, so if you can find a dealer that sells one, you can at least sit in it and perhaps test drive it to see if it's worth the wait for you.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar on 11/21/2015 at 26,435 miles.
Lease returned on 12/23/2015. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL

GRA
Posts: 6848
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:12 pm

RonDawg wrote:As suggested early in this thread, you may want to consider the updated eGolf with the 35.8 kWH battery when it comes out in a few months. It already has CarPlay and feels more sporty to drive than the Leaf. Prices are expected to be considerably less than the Bolt, though it doesn't have the Bolt's range. The VW Canada spokesman behind the wheel of this updated eGolf (at a VW event in Mallorca) says the car has a 300 km (186 mile) range on the European test cycle, and is expected to have at least 200 km (125 mile) "real world" range:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jp0P3rkcVM

The current 24 kWH eGolf is available in Oregon, but not Washington, but VW is expected to make this a 50 state car when the larger-battery version comes out; they have already announced they will start selling them in Canada for the first time. Other than the battery, there will only be minor changes between the current and new model, so if you can find a dealer that sells one, you can at least sit in it and perhaps test drive it to see if it's worth the wait for you.

One thing's for sure, in the e-Golf the OP will have plenty of leg room. Unlike just about every Japanese car I've driven/owned in the last 30 years, instead of having barely enough leg room for my 6'0", 34" inseam self at the aft stop (cruise control in such cars is a mandatory option for longer trips, so I can stretch my legs a bit), in the (24.2 kWh) e-Golf I had to move the seat several inches forward of the aft stop to reach the pedals, and my thighs weren't begging for a longer seat cushion. The average Japanese male has gotten taller since WW2, but they still don't have the average height of Europeans or those of us descended from same. BTW, the bigger battery e-Golf has been officially EPA-rated at 125 miles, and here's C&D's review: http://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/e-golf

Pricing is still unannounced.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

jjeff
Posts: 1307
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:33 am

GRA wrote:One thing's for sure, in the e-Golf the OP will have plenty of leg room. Unlike just about every Japanese car I've driven/owned in the last 30 years, instead of having barely enough leg room for my 6'0", 34" inseam self at the aft stop (cruise control in such cars is a mandatory option for longer trips, so I can stretch my legs a bit), in the (24.2 kWh) e-Golf I had to move the seat several inches forward of the aft stop to reach the pedals, and my thighs weren't begging for a longer seat cushion. The average Japanese male has gotten taller since WW2, but they still don't have the average height of Europeans or those of us descended from same.

If forward Leg room is important(and really only leg length room as I feel both these cars are extremely cramped in every aspect including quite cramped cockpit feet area) then I'd also suggest either the Chevy Volt or Bolt. The first thing I do in 95% of the vehicles I drive is to push the seat ALL the way back, until it clunks at the rear stops. Out of instinct I did this on both the Volt and Bolt and to my amazement I could hardly reach the pedals :lol: I had to move the seats several inches forward. Of course with the seats all the way back, the front seat was basically touching the rear seat and even forward by a couple inches hardly left any leg room for rear seat passengers, still it had LOTS of forward leg room for front seats on both the Chevy products :)
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

BranchingOut
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:19 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Apr 2017

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Sat May 27, 2017 8:08 pm

Well I did it. I drove home in a 2017 Leaf S today (with the 6.6kW / quick charge). Looking at this EVSE: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013VNIAEU and Amazon says that installation of that EVSE + install of 240V socket is another $518.

Not doing the EVSE upgrade as this is a 2 year lease. Tried out trickle charge today and went from 82% to 100% in about 5.5 hours. Figured I could use the theoretical 7.68KW for future LEAF cars (from the 32A / 240V ClipperCreek EVSE). Thanks everyone and thanks to this forum for the search results!

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1250
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Sun May 28, 2017 4:48 am

I think you will enjoy the LEAF. The brake pedal will feel firmer after the ceramic pads seat to the rotors, but it takes a while. Inflate the Bridgestone Ecopias to 44 psi to improve road feel and wet road traction until you replace them--you may even decide they are OK for now. If accelerator pedal mapping and inverter control software on 2017 is similar to 2015, best acceleration from a stop happens by feathering the pedal just enough to get full 80 kW instead of just flooring it.

I looked at the link you posted for the Clipper Creek EVSE and don't understand their installation charge. It plugs in to a 14-50 receptacle and mounts on the wall with 2 bolts. Installation of the receptacle could cost a fair amount depending upon your specific conditions, but it is not clear that receptacle installation is included in the quoted charge. If you think you might get a longer range EV in the future, you might want to consider the HCS-50P (which is on sale now directly on Clipper Creek's web site http://www.clippercreek.com for $659) to allow the highest charging rate possible from the 50-ampere receptacle. If you don't already have the receptacle, I suggest you get the EVSE before installing the receptacle. Since the supply cord on the EVSE is only 12 inches long (to farthest edge of plug), it is best to determine EVSE mounting location and then install receptacle where necessary for the supply cord to plug in.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

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