Considering an EV (Leaf SV and others)

Hello everyone,

Hi. I've spent a few hours here (fine lots of hours here) and before I forget, http://wiki.mynissanleaf.com/ is down. This site has been a very nice resource to get started on the whole EV aspect. I'm an ICE snob in that arena and I currently have a 6MT Cayman that I love driving at the redline. However, for daily driving, after crunching numbers in Excel for a few hours, it makes sense to drive an EV for daily driving and leave the Cayman for canyon runs over the weekend.

I live in the PNW and my daily commute is around 45-55 miles depending on day. I'm currently digging up your forum literature on 240V, EVSE cable setups, and lease deals. I'm looking at leasing the Leaf SV (2 year lease ideally) and talking to multiple dealerships right now (or rather they won't leave me alone). I'm also considering the Bolt (love the range) but the numbers don't make me happy so far. Why the SV? I want the 30KW battery and Carplay. Hoping that I can only charge once a day at home (8PM-6AM) but worst case scenario, there's a backup car.

As far as leases go, looking at a deal that says 3K down, 195 per month before interest. Going to see what Costco Auto buying discount will add (or rather subtract from) to that lease. May also consider 2016 SV versions if they are "nice enough".

BranchingOut said:

Hello everyone,

Hi. I've spent a few hours here (fine lots of hours here) and before I forget, http://wiki.mynissanleaf.com/ is down. This site has been a very nice resource to get started on the whole EV aspect. I'm an ICE snob in that arena and I currently have a 6MT Cayman that I love driving at the redline. However, for daily driving, after crunching numbers in Excel for a few hours, it makes sense to drive an EV for daily driving and leave the Cayman for canyon runs over the weekend.

I live in the PNW and my daily commute is around 45-55 miles depending on day. I'm currently digging up your forum literature on 240V, EVSE cable setups, and lease deals. I'm looking at leasing the Leaf SV (2 year lease ideally) and talking to multiple dealerships right now (or rather they won't leave me alone). I'm also considering the Bolt (love the range) but the numbers don't make me happy so far. Why the SV? I want the 30KW battery and Carplay. Hoping that I can only charge once a day at home (8PM-6AM) but worst case scenario, there's a backup car.

As far as leases go, looking at a deal that says 3K down, 195 per month before interest. Going to see what Costco Auto buying discount will add (or rather subtract from) to that lease. May also consider 2016 SV versions if they are "nice enough".

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If you are buying new, all 2017s including the S come with the 30kWh battery. However for the PNW's climate the heat pump will boost your usable range, and that's only available on the SV and SL, so I'd stick with an SV. You should be fine only charging at home if you have a 30kWh battery, as long as you don't insist on driving the car like your Cayman on your commute! OTOH, if they're available where you are you might want to consider one of the new 35.8kWh e-Golfs, as it will be more of a driver's car than the LEAF (if that matters to you for commuting).

GRA said:

However for the PNW's climate the heat pump will boost your usable range, and that's only available on the SV and SL, so I'd stick with an SV. You should be fine only charging at home if you have a 30kWh battery, as long as you don't insist on driving the car like your Cayman on your commute!

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Thank you. I didn't know about the heat-pump part. As for the driving style, I usually stay at 5-10 over limit and don't get crazy with speeds on public roads. However I'll need to ease off on the throttle as the instant torque may get addictive . I'm test driving a few cars in the next few days and curious to know how they handle in both dry and wet conditions and road noise. It'll be a bit of a change from a proper engine behind my ear to experiencing road noise.

I want quieter grippy tires and looking at rotating every ~6K miles. Need to do a bit more research.

The Leaf is different from an ICE car in that steady highway speeds (above 60-65MPH especially) result in worse "fuel" economy than rapid acceleration at low speeds. And, of course, also in that the heater can use almost as much energy as the motor. That's why you want the heatpump-equipped SV or SL. The most cost-effective choice is the SV without the Premium Package (Bose stereo and four camera parking system). These are the last of the SV/SL cars on the lots to sell, and the ones you can most likely get a deal on.

Thanks. I don't want the Premium package around audio or cameras. Do want the CarPlay option so I can listen to streaming sounds of Flat six engine at the redline. I mean music. Leaning towards Leaf now even though I think the Bolt looks miles better as the Leaf is more value for the $ and the interior feels nicer. Things will definitely be more interesting in 1-2 years with the 60KW battery and less ugly look.

I think that Carplay is part of the SV/SL Nav & Entertainment system, but don't know for certain. In three years, if you don't find the Leaf's performance satisfying, there should be off-lease Bolts coming up for sale. Maybe by then they will have fixed the Bolt's seats...

I don't believe Nissan offers CarPlay. Also in the PNW where it doesn't get too cold and his commute, a 30kw S should suffice.

Phatcat73 said:

... Also in the PNW where it doesn't get too cold and his commute, a 30kw S should suffice.

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I know what your saying but if extending range is important, the heatpump in a warmer(wetter) climate like WA is even more important than a frigid place like MN(my state). You see in a very cold climate(teens or colder) the heatpump and standard S heater draw the same power, mainly in the warmer temps is where the heatpump shines. You also save a lot during defogging, something that I'd imagine you have to do more in WA than MN.
Again if range isn't a big concern(and it sounds like it might not be so much according to the OP) your right, a 30kw S Leaf would probably work just fine, but a SV with it's heatpump could come in handy if your running low on charge and need to defog your windows. Unless your windows frost up(which can happen in sub freezing temps) you can get by without heat in the cold by simply using seat heaters and steering wheel heat but if your windows fog up as can happen in warmer temps, it's a safety issue and you really have no choice other than use defog and therefore heat
Note to the OP, I believe?? you may lose rear seat heat on the S model?? on later Leafs, if this is important to you, you'll want to check into it more. This was not a issue on earlier Leafs where rear seat was standard on all Leafs, regardless of trim level.

BranchingOut said:

GRA said:

However for the PNW's climate the heat pump will boost your usable range, and that's only available on the SV and SL, so I'd stick with an SV. You should be fine only charging at home if you have a 30kWh battery, as long as you don't insist on driving the car like your Cayman on your commute!

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Thank you. I didn't know about the heat-pump part. As for the driving style, I usually stay at 5-10 over limit and don't get crazy with speeds on public roads. However I'll need to ease off on the throttle as the instant torque may get addictive . I'm test driving a few cars in the next few days and curious to know how they handle in both dry and wet conditions and road noise. It'll be a bit of a change from a proper engine behind my ear to experiencing road noise.

I want quieter grippy tires and looking at rotating every ~6K miles. Need to do a bit more research.

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Just be aware of subtracting some amount of range for grippier tires - I know there have been posts on that subject. You should have plenty of range for your needs either way, but if you opt for an S without the heat pump you may have issues in a few edge cases. If you're leasing new for only a couple of years, in the PNW climate (assuming you're west of the Cascades) it shouldn't be an issue, but I do think the SV/SL's heat pump provides enough of an additional range benefit in mild climates like that or here in the S.F. Bay Area that it's worth having, even though you'll probably be okay range-wise with an S. Having the heat pump might well be the deciding factor if you ever contemplate buying out the lease. If you were to opt for a used 24kWh LEAF I'd consider the heat pump mandatory, as you might already be pushing the range on a degraded battery.

HTH, and do try the e-Golf if available, as it will definitely feel more like what you're used to, although you almost certainly won't be able to get as good as deal as you can on a 2017 LEAF, as the latter staggers towards the finish line of this generation and Nissan discounts them like crazy.

You sound to be in a pretty similar boat to me. At the end of March I bought a 2017 Leaf SV which shocked everyone who knows me but the number really do make sense. I am coming from a heavily modified BMW 135i and love a small RWD car that I can throw around. I have worked as a driving skills coach and simply love cars and going fast. However, I came to realize that the 135i I had modified was not the best decision for a 50 mile daily commute in traffic and I decided I needed a commuter car that was comfortable, quite, efficient, and preferably cheap. The Leaf actually seems to be an excellent choice based off this criteria and I am feeling good about the decision so far. With the incentives and tax credits, I was able to get the car for exactly $13,505 out the door, including all sales tax, delivery, tax credits, etc. If I keep the car for five years and am able to sell the Leaf for above $7,500 the the car will pay for itself in fuel savings for me. With a similar commute, I assume the numbers will work well for you as well.

The Leaf is not going to be as fun to drive as the Caymen, People make a big deal about the torque in the electric cars but the Leaf is a slow car no mater what some people will claim. It does take over 10 seconds to get from 0-60. The truth is that most people never floor the gas pedal of their cars as they drive in traffic and never feel how fast their cars really are. People simply don't need or use the car's maximum amount of power. I have personally done a 3.9 second 0-60mph in my 135i at a track but do you know what that looks like on the streets? It looks like I am going to hurt someone or get arrested. I never flog my 135i unless I am on a track or I am confident nobody else is around, which is rare and never really needed. Based off your choice of the Cayman, I assume you enjoy going around the turns quickly as opposed to going in a straight line. This is why I think you wanting stickier tires is a good idea and I would also recommend it if you have the range. It does sound like your range would decrease with the sticky tires, however, your tires are your only connection to the road. They make a huge difference and I am confident that with better tires you could still have plenty of fun in a Leaf on the roads. In my simple mind, low rolling resistance also means less traction to turn or stop your car. Again, most people don't drive at the limits of their cars, so a little extra range makes sense for them. Based off your prior selection of the Cayman, I am guessing you would like the Leaf's limits to be higher and better rubber would be the best way to raise those limits.

Good luck with your decision. I personally think that I made a good decision to improve 99% of the driving I really do in a city with the Leaf instead of a sports car. Is driving a Leaf as fun as a sports car? No, but neitheris going to work and yet I still go to work most of the time. I herd Jay Leno say before that he thought electric cars will be similar to how internal combustion engines replaced horses for daily transportation. Soon enough, everyone will drive electric cars to and from work and some people will also own an ICE car for recreation like some people today still have horses.

The Leaf is not going to be as fun to drive as the Caymen, People make a big deal about the torque in the electric cars but the Leaf is a slow car no mater what some people will claim. It does take over 10 seconds to get from 0-60. The truth is that most people never floor the gas pedal of their cars as they drive in traffic and never feel how fast their cars really are.

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You need to make a distinction between city and highway acceleration. The Leaf is faster from 0-30MPH than most cars (and motorcycles), and the ease of getting that power to the pavement makes it easy to shock idiots in loud 400+HP cars like Mustangs, that require some finesse to get to speed from a full stop - finesse that most of the drivers lack. Trying to get a Leaf from 40 to 60MPH, though, that's another story - you really feel the lack of horsepower. Still, for people who mainly drive at lower speeds the Leaf is quite peppy. And, amusingly, a Leaf will still easily outrun a Bolt. ;-)

I just bought a used 2016 Leaf SL with Premium Package. The Bose audio does sound better and the surround view camera is a nice feature. If you're spending 20 to 30K on a car, why quibble over a few hundred bucks. I chose the 2016 for the bigger battery and greater range. You can get them on nissanusa.com. Search for Certified Pre-Owned and search the entire country. If you find what you want, you can have it shipped for less than a buck a mile. CPOs come with great benefits including warranty, dirt cheap financing and rebates on Leafs. I had planned to purchase a CPO but I took a chance on one that I found at CarMax with 400 miles on it. It seems to be okay except signs of paintwork repair on the driver's door.

I like responsive ICE cars too. I also just leased a supercharged and turbocharged 300HP+ Volvo. Love it. But then there always seems to be a need for a second car. Had a Leaf before I retired and loved it for commuting. No gasoline fill-ups. No stink. Hardly any maintenance. Plug it in at night and you're good to go for another 100 miles.

LeftieBiker said:

You need to make a distinction between city and highway acceleration. The Leaf is faster from 0-30MPH than most cars (and motorcycles), and the ease of getting that power to the pavement makes it easy to shock idiots in loud 400+HP cars like Mustangs, that require some finesse to get to speed from a full stop - finesse that most of the drivers lack. Trying to get a Leaf from 40 to 60MPH, though, that's another story - you really feel the lack of horsepower. Still, for people who mainly drive at lower speeds the Leaf is quite peppy. And, amusingly, a Leaf will still easily outrun a Bolt. ;-)

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I somewhat agree and disagree with the above. I agree that the Leaf is better at slow speeds then high speeds and that it has plenty of power driving around. I disagree that you are going to "shock idiots in loud 400+HP cars". You are not going to be shocking them at all. You may annoy them when you dart out in a Leaf while they accelerate at a normal speed but this is like passing a car on the highway and thinking that makes your car faster. Of course a Leaf at 100% throttle accelerates faster then a 400+HP mustang at 15% throttle. However, if the Mustang driver wants to, they can floor the gas pedal and be right by the Leaf at any moment. This is kind of what I was talking about before when I wrote that people don't normally drive at the limits of their cars ability. That mustang owner probably does not use more then 50% throttle very often. Most people don't. When you drive around in traffic, you probably use between 50-100HP most of the time. The Leaf has over 100HP, so you won't feel too strained unless you are on a short highway entrance ramp or something similar. Accelerating from a stop light faster then a high HP car in traffic only means that the Leaf is using more power then the high HP car is. Pretending that the Leaf is faster because the Leaf driver used more power is a little silly though. If a 400+HP Mustang uses all 400HP, it will accelerate to 60MPH in the 4s. A Leaf could have a full 5 second head start and it would still be slower when both cars use maximum power to accelerate to get to highway speeds. I think that some people convince themselves that the Leaf is fast because with an electric car they sometimes floor the accelerator pedal because it is quite and smooth while they never floored the pedal in their ICE car because it was loud and made them nervous. That is kind of what I was getting at when I wrote that most people never experience their cars limits. For example, I had my wife floor her new car before she bought it and she did it for about one second before kindly informing me that it was excessive, loud, and made her nervous something was going to break or a police officer would see her. I had her floor the pedal of the Leaf after I bought it and she kept it floored until she got up to about 55MPH and then told me she liked how quite and smooth it was. For her, that makes the Leaf feel fast as she will use 100% throttle in it but not her ICE car.

Thanks for your additional thoughts everyone.

@4CloverLeaf: You've pretty much nailed my line of thinking as well. As for grippy tires, I just like having traction and would rather carry the momentum around corners and curves than brake and engage throttle as a majority of the population seems to love to do (hit the brake at the first opportunity instead of coasting) - may have something to do with not having learned to drive using a manual transmission but I digress. Maybe it's just PNW drivers

I test drove the Bolt and the Leaf. I must say the Bolt feels more responsive and handles like a fun car around turns and curves.

Bolt:
+ Carplay integration.
+ Handles way better, more available battery means I can flog the car a bit and not have range anxiety. Also better turning radius than Leaf
+ Comfortable driving position for someone at 6'3"
+ Way better steering feel: both the weight and feedback from the road
+ The bolt screen on dash felt nicer and felt I was getting more feedback about battery use

- Not necessarily a negative but being first generation and just having shown up, not much in terms of incentives
- Interior is very cheap (granted I wasn't in premium but that has better seats) and it shows
- No free 2 year charging that the Leaf comes with


Leaf:
+ Way better value for money. Ran numbers through Excel and no matter how I slice it, Leaf wins
+ Opened the boot and at first (and 2nd, 3rd, 4th) glance looks like the Leaf has more room
+ Less road noise (or maybe the roads were less awful) than the Bolt
+ Free 2 year charging is nice to have

- No carplay
- Steering feels absolutely awful
- Brakes felt soft and mushy

Overall all things being equal (which they rarely are), the Bolt is way more fun to drive (handling, steering, braking, acceleration) and looks better than the outdated Leaf design. However, the 2 year lease I'm looking is not bad and the Leaf is definitely more value for my money. At this point, I'm leaning towards the Leaf and will sleep on it.

The Kia Soul EV felt very cramped and just plain meh.

I disagree that you are going to "shock idiots in loud 400+HP cars". You are not going to be shocking them at all. You may annoy them when you dart out in a Leaf while they accelerate at a normal speed but this is like passing a car on the highway and thinking that makes your car faster. Of course a Leaf at 100% throttle accelerates faster then a 400+HP mustang at 15% throttle. However, if the Mustang driver wants to, they can floor the gas pedal and be right by the Leaf at any moment. This is kind of what I was talking about before when I wrote that people don't normally drive at the limits of their cars ability. That mustang owner probably does not use more then 50% throttle very often. Most people don't. When you drive around in traffic, you probably use between 50-100HP most of the time. The Leaf has over 100HP, so you won't feel too strained unless you are on a short highway entrance ramp or something similar. Accelerating from a stop light faster then a high HP car in traffic only means that the Leaf is using more power then the high HP car is. Pretending that the Leaf is faster because the Leaf driver used more power is a little silly though. If a 400+HP Mustang uses all 400HP, it will accelerate to 60MPH in the 4s.

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I think there have been too many cases of muscle car drivers "sitting and spinning" while an EV darts ahead, to support your argument. Unless 15% of throttle has gotten a lot louder and smokier than it used to be, I think you're just assuming that all of them have traction control (and use it) or that all the MC drivers are experts, as opposed to just being able to make the payments on fast, loud cars. Not around here. I don't do much drag racing at all these days, but just this last week a very loud, very aggressive Mustang tried to use horsepower to get out of an ending right lane after a traffic light and ahead of me, instead of just turning in behind me like a rational being. Judging by his behavior after failing, I'm pretty sure that he had in fact been trying to succeed. Your reality may vary.

We now return you to whatever topic this is, already in progress.

BranchingOut said:

Thanks for your additional thoughts everyone.

@4CloverLeaf: You've pretty much nailed my line of thinking as well. As for grippy tires, I just like having traction and would rather carry the momentum around corners and curves than brake and engage throttle as a majority of the population seems to love to do (hit the brake at the first opportunity instead of coasting) - may have something to do with not having learned to drive using a manual transmission but I digress. Maybe it's just PNW drivers

I test drove the Bolt and the Leaf. I must say the Bolt feels more responsive and handles like a fun car around turns and curves.

Bolt:
+ Carplay integration.
+ Handles way better, more available battery means I can flog the car a bit and not have range anxiety. Also better turning radius than Leaf
+ Comfortable driving position for someone at 6'3"
+ Way better steering feel: both the weight and feedback from the road
+ The bolt screen on dash felt nicer and felt I was getting more feedback about battery use

- Not necessarily a negative but being first generation and just having shown up, not much in terms of incentives
- Interior is very cheap (granted I wasn't in premium but that has better seats) and it shows
- No free 2 year charging that the Leaf comes with


Leaf:
+ Way better value for money. Ran numbers through Excel and no matter how I slice it, Leaf wins
+ Opened the boot and at first (and 2nd, 3rd, 4th) glance looks like the Leaf has more room
+ Less road noise (or maybe the roads were less awful) than the Bolt
+ Free 2 year charging is nice to have

- No carplay
- Steering feels absolutely awful
- Brakes felt soft and mushy

Overall all things being equal (which they rarely are), the Bolt is way more fun to drive (handling, steering, braking, acceleration) and looks better than the outdated Leaf design. However, the 2 year lease I'm looking is not bad and the Leaf is definitely more value for my money. At this point, I'm leaning towards the Leaf and will sleep on it.

The Kia Soul EV felt very cramped and just plain meh.

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As suggested early in this thread, you may want to consider the updated eGolf with the 35.8 kWH battery when it comes out in a few months. It already has CarPlay and feels more sporty to drive than the Leaf. Prices are expected to be considerably less than the Bolt, though it doesn't have the Bolt's range. The VW Canada spokesman behind the wheel of this updated eGolf (at a VW event in Mallorca) says the car has a 300 km (186 mile) range on the European test cycle, and is expected to have at least 200 km (125 mile) "real world" range:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jp0P3rkcVM

The current 24 kWH eGolf is available in Oregon, but not Washington, but VW is expected to make this a 50 state car when the larger-battery version comes out; they have already announced they will start selling them in Canada for the first time. Other than the battery, there will only be minor changes between the current and new model, so if you can find a dealer that sells one, you can at least sit in it and perhaps test drive it to see if it's worth the wait for you.

RonDawg said:

As suggested early in this thread, you may want to consider the updated eGolf with the 35.8 kWH battery when it comes out in a few months. It already has CarPlay and feels more sporty to drive than the Leaf. Prices are expected to be considerably less than the Bolt, though it doesn't have the Bolt's range. The VW Canada spokesman behind the wheel of this updated eGolf (at a VW event in Mallorca) says the car has a 300 km (186 mile) range on the European test cycle, and is expected to have at least 200 km (125 mile) "real world" range:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jp0P3rkcVM

The current 24 kWH eGolf is available in Oregon, but not Washington, but VW is expected to make this a 50 state car when the larger-battery version comes out; they have already announced they will start selling them in Canada for the first time. Other than the battery, there will only be minor changes between the current and new model, so if you can find a dealer that sells one, you can at least sit in it and perhaps test drive it to see if it's worth the wait for you.

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One thing's for sure, in the e-Golf the OP will have plenty of leg room. Unlike just about every Japanese car I've driven/owned in the last 30 years, instead of having barely enough leg room for my 6'0", 34" inseam self at the aft stop (cruise control in such cars is a mandatory option for longer trips, so I can stretch my legs a bit), in the (24.2 kWh) e-Golf I had to move the seat several inches forward of the aft stop to reach the pedals, and my thighs weren't begging for a longer seat cushion. The average Japanese male has gotten taller since WW2, but they still don't have the average height of Europeans or those of us descended from same. BTW, the bigger battery e-Golf has been officially EPA-rated at 125 miles, and here's C&D's review: http://www.caranddriver.com/volkswagen/e-golf

Pricing is still unannounced.

GRA said:

One thing's for sure, in the e-Golf the OP will have plenty of leg room. Unlike just about every Japanese car I've driven/owned in the last 30 years, instead of having barely enough leg room for my 6'0", 34" inseam self at the aft stop (cruise control in such cars is a mandatory option for longer trips, so I can stretch my legs a bit), in the (24.2 kWh) e-Golf I had to move the seat several inches forward of the aft stop to reach the pedals, and my thighs weren't begging for a longer seat cushion. The average Japanese male has gotten taller since WW2, but they still don't have the average height of Europeans or those of us descended from same.

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If forward Leg room is important(and really only leg length room as I feel both these cars are extremely cramped in every aspect including quite cramped cockpit feet area) then I'd also suggest either the Chevy Volt or Bolt. The first thing I do in 95% of the vehicles I drive is to push the seat ALL the way back, until it clunks at the rear stops. Out of instinct I did this on both the Volt and Bolt and to my amazement I could hardly reach the pedals :lol: I had to move the seats several inches forward. Of course with the seats all the way back, the front seat was basically touching the rear seat and even forward by a couple inches hardly left any leg room for rear seat passengers, still it had LOTS of forward leg room for front seats on both the Chevy products

Well I did it. I drove home in a 2017 Leaf S today (with the 6.6kW / quick charge). Looking at this EVSE: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013VNIAEU and Amazon says that installation of that EVSE + install of 240V socket is another $518.

Not doing the EVSE upgrade as this is a 2 year lease. Tried out trickle charge today and went from 82% to 100% in about 5.5 hours. Figured I could use the theoretical 7.68KW for future LEAF cars (from the 32A / 240V ClipperCreek EVSE). Thanks everyone and thanks to this forum for the search results!

I think you will enjoy the LEAF. The brake pedal will feel firmer after the ceramic pads seat to the rotors, but it takes a while. Inflate the Bridgestone Ecopias to 44 psi to improve road feel and wet road traction until you replace them--you may even decide they are OK for now. If accelerator pedal mapping and inverter control software on 2017 is similar to 2015, best acceleration from a stop happens by feathering the pedal just enough to get full 80 kW instead of just flooring it.

I looked at the link you posted for the Clipper Creek EVSE and don't understand their installation charge. It plugs in to a 14-50 receptacle and mounts on the wall with 2 bolts. Installation of the receptacle could cost a fair amount depending upon your specific conditions, but it is not clear that receptacle installation is included in the quoted charge. If you think you might get a longer range EV in the future, you might want to consider the HCS-50P (which is on sale now directly on Clipper Creek's web site http://www.clippercreek.com for $659) to allow the highest charging rate possible from the 50-ampere receptacle. If you don't already have the receptacle, I suggest you get the EVSE before installing the receptacle. Since the supply cord on the EVSE is only 12 inches long (to farthest edge of plug), it is best to determine EVSE mounting location and then install receptacle where necessary for the supply cord to plug in.