18K for $8500 or 55K for $7500?

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natkra90

Active member
Joined
Apr 15, 2017
Messages
31
Location
Chicago, IL
I'm looking at buying a Used Nissan leaf in a few days. I found two Leafs in my area that I think are good values. Both are 2013 S models with 12 bars. The only real difference is the price and mileage. Does the mileage really matter if the batteries have depreciated the same? I would do an extended test drive (25% capacity x 4) to make sure there's no gimmicks and also check with Leafspy. Even if there's a 10% difference in SOH, it's hard to justify paying an extra 13%. Any advice is appreciated.
 
My personal opinion is that the mileage is irrelevant, other than perhaps a minimal difference in wear on suspension components, brakes, etc. Having said that, driving style has a lot more influence on those than mileage and it's hard to tell if a car has been driven hard or not.

All other things being equal, I would definitely save the $1000 and buy the higher mileage Leaf. In fact, that's exactly what I did - I bought mine with 46K miles, but with a battery in excellent condition.
 
What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

What's the build month on these? It's found on the driver's side door sticker. Where did the cars resided before (found via Carfax and/or Autocheck).

Do these have the charge package (adds CHAdeMO inlet and upgrades OBC to 6.x kW)? If not, neither of these are good prices.

The EV system/powertrain warranty is 5 years/60K miles, so the higher mileage one is almost at the end of that.
 
alozzy said:
My personal opinion is that the mileage is irrelevant, other than perhaps a minimal difference in wear on suspension components, brakes, etc. Having said that, driving style has a lot more influence on those than mileage and it's hard to tell if a car has been driven hard or not.

All other things being equal, I would definitely save the $1000 and buy the higher mileage Leaf. In fact, that's exactly what I did - I bought mine with 46K miles, but with a battery in excellent condition.

Thanks for the response. I probably will do the same. How is it working out for you?
 
cwerdna said:
What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

What's the build month on these? It's found on the driver's side door sticker. Where did the cars resided before (found via Carfax and/or Autocheck).

Do these have the charge package (adds CHAdeMO inlet and upgrades OBC to 6.x kW)? If not, neither of these are good prices.

The EV system/powertrain warranty is 5 years/60K miles, so the higher mileage one is almost at the end of that.

They're both built after April, and they both have been in Chicagoland the whole time. The higher mileage one is Nissan Certified, so the powertrain warranty will be covered another 7 years/100,000 miles. The battery warranty would be the only point of concern for me with the 55k Leaf.

The 18k does not have L3 charging. The 55k does. I don't think that's going to be too much of a concern for me because it's going to be a 2nd car for going back and forth to work. Right now a round trip is 30 miles, but I could be transferred where my daily commute could get up to 40 miles. It's pretty much only city driving, and I think all of my charging will be at home.
 
I totally lucked out as the battery is still 94% SOH and the mileage is now over 50k. Paid $8000 for SV + QC package, which I thought was a great deal. After spending time on these forums, I've learned that the PNW is the perfect climate for a Leaf as very few WA Leafs seem to have battery issues.

If you append the VIN of the Leads you are interested in to this URL:

http://cpo.nissanusa.com/nna/?

Then you might get lucky and be able to view the original sales sticker, as that will show the trim level, any add on packages (ie QC), and I think it includes the date of manufacture too. If not, that's on the door pillar
 
Was composing while you posted, ignore my comments on date of manufacture and location :)

FYI, the QC package seems to be worth about $750 - $1000 in the used market
 
FWIW, $7500 for an S with QC is pretty good if the battery is also in good shape. Like I said, I paid $7995 for a 2013 SV + QC with 46k miles, but WA is a different market.
 
alozzy said:
I totally lucked out as the battery is still 94% SOH and the mileage is now over 50k. Paid $8000 for SV + QC package, which I thought was a great deal. After spending time on these forums, I've learned that the PNW is the perfect climate for a Leaf as very few WA Leafs seem to have battery issues.
...
FYI, the QC package seems to be worth about $750 - $1000 in the used market
...
FWIW, $7500 for an S with QC is pretty good if the battery is also in good shape. Like I said, I paid $7995 for a 2013 SV + QC with 46k miles, but WA is a different market.

Wow. That's a home run. Hopefully I can luck out too. I'm not expecting 94% because we have warmer days here, but anywhere close to that would be great.

I might be able to get the dealership to go lower on the vehicle too because the high miles will deter buyers. I'll probably ask for $6500 and see where we end up. I'm not planning on reselling it, but who knows what will happen. Can't go wrong with extra value having the QC.

Thanks for your feedback. I think it will make my decision much easier.
 
Another thing to take in to consideration is if it has QC on the higher mileage vehicle, it should have the 6kw on-board charger vs the 3.3 on the lower mileage vehicle.
 
natkra90 said:
cwerdna said:
What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

What's the build month on these? It's found on the driver's side door sticker. Where did the cars resided before (found via Carfax and/or Autocheck).

Do these have the charge package (adds CHAdeMO inlet and upgrades OBC to 6.x kW)? If not, neither of these are good prices.

The EV system/powertrain warranty is 5 years/60K miles, so the higher mileage one is almost at the end of that.

They're both built after April, and they both have been in Chicagoland the whole time. The higher mileage one is Nissan Certified, so the powertrain warranty will be covered another 7 years/100,000 miles. The battery warranty would be the only point of concern for me with the 55k Leaf.

The 18k does not have L3 charging. The 55k does. I don't think that's going to be too much of a concern for me because it's going to be a 2nd car for going back and forth to work. Right now a round trip is 30 miles, but I could be transferred where my daily commute could get up to 40 miles. It's pretty much only city driving, and I think all of my charging will be at home.
To be clear, the powertrain/EV system warranty via CPO is only extended to 7 years/100K miles from original in-service date, not for another 7/100K (http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-plugs-electric-leaf-into-certified-pre-owned-vehicles-program).

My reason for bringing up CHAdeMO or no is what others alluded to. Base S trim '13 w/charge package only has 3.x kW OBC (slower L2 charging) and has less value that one with that package (CHAdeMO inlet + 6.x kW OBC).

As for certified, there's your problem. I guess you're shopping at Nissan franchise dealers. They tend to have high markups.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=489054#p489054 are wholesale values. I bought from a used car dealer who had a $1K markup above his cost. My '13 SV w/premium package only he won at auction at $8K + $325 auction fees, so I paid $9,325 + tax and license in July 2015 for a 12 bar car built 5/2013 w/under 24K miles. I still had 11 months left on the 3 year/36K basic warranty. Car still has all 12 capacity bars but is getting closer to losing 1 CB.

Some posts about my saga at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=429492#p429492 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825.

$8500 for a '13 S w/o charge package is not a good price at this point in time. Part of the prob is the Nissan dealer and maybe your market. I guess the CPO part adds some value but from http://cpo.nissanusa.com/brochures/faq?tool=cpo.top_nav.sub_section.link, it doesn't seem to extend the warranty to anything beyond the powertrain/EV system w/a $50 deductible.

For some context, see '13 and '14 used prices for my area: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?sort=priceasc&auto_make_model=nissan%20leaf&max_auto_year=2014&min_auto_year=2013.

Although not near me, http://www.plattauto.com/ I believe mostly has vehicles that resided in the mild Pacific Northwest, so their battery degradation is much less than much of the rest of the US. I briefly glanced at their S and SV spreadsheet on the front page.
 
natkra90 said:
Even if there's a 10% difference in SOH, it's hard to justify paying an extra 13%. Any advice is appreciated.
I suggest thinking about this differently. As Cwerdna prompted, you have to consider the battery in the context of your use case and how long you want the car to meet your requirements.

Example: you plan on a 40 mile commute and due to Chicago weather, bump that trip number use requirement to 60 between charges. Figure on losing 5% SoC a year which is worth around 5 miles. A 12 bar car can be anywhere from 85- 100% SoC. A little arithmetic shows you that a 10% SoC difference between cars is huge, FOR THIS USE CASE. It can be the difference between the car meeting your needs two years or four years.

A spreadsheet would make this type of calc clear, or you can plug in the number of years (Y) you want the car to last into this equation that shows the required range of the car bought today:
Range_Today = 60/0.95^N

Since Range reported on the car is user dependent, translate it into SoC based on 84 miles range in a new car:
Range_ Today/84 = SoC today
 
cwerdna said:
To be clear, the powertrain/EV system warranty via CPO is only extended to 7 years/100K miles from original in-service date, not for another 7/100K (http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-plugs-electric-leaf-into-certified-pre-owned-vehicles-program).

My reason for bringing up CHAdeMO or no is what others alluded to. Base S trim '13 w/charge package only has 3.x kW OBC (slower L2 charging) and has less value that one with that package (CHAdeMO inlet + 6.x kW OBC).

As for certified, there's your problem. I guess you're shopping at Nissan franchise dealers. They tend to have high markups.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=489054#p489054 are wholesale values. I bought from a used car dealer who had a $1K markup above his cost. My '13 SV w/premium package only he won at auction at $8K + $325 auction fees, so I paid $9,325 + tax and license in July 2015 for a 12 bar car built 5/2013 w/under 24K miles. I still had 11 months left on the 3 year/36K basic warranty. Car still has all 12 capacity bars but is getting closer to losing 1 CB.

Some posts about my saga at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=429492#p429492 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825.

$8500 for a '13 S w/o charge package is not a good price at this point in time. Part of the prob is the Nissan dealer and maybe your market. I guess the CPO part adds some value but from http://cpo.nissanusa.com/brochures/faq?tool=cpo.top_nav.sub_section.link, it doesn't seem to extend the warranty to anything beyond the powertrain/EV system w/a $50 deductible.

For some context, see '13 and '14 used prices for my area: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?sort=priceasc&auto_make_model=nissan%20leaf&max_auto_year=2014&min_auto_year=2013.

Although not near me, http://www.plattauto.com/ I believe mostly has vehicles that resided in the mild Pacific Northwest, so their battery degradation is much less than much of the rest of the US. I briefly glanced at their S and SV spreadsheet on the front page.
That's a real eye opener. It looks like Chicago market is $1000 more, but for me, I don't know how I would get a car outside of my local market that I would trust. If I can't test drive it, I don't feel comfortable making that kind of investment. Not to mention, shipping the Leaf across the country would all but eliminate the savings buying from the west coast.

The $8500 18k is actually a private seller.

So, I'm thinking the 55k miles for $7500 is probably the best value I have right now. The issue is there's apparently a low supply of used Leafs in Chicagoland. I could wait to see if a better deal comes to my local market. Do you think prices will get cheaper?
 
natkra90 said:
That's a real eye opener. It looks like Chicago market is $1000 more, but for me, I don't know how I would get a car outside of my local market that I would trust. If I can't test drive it, I don't feel comfortable making that kind of investment. Not to mention, shipping the Leaf across the country would all but eliminate the savings buying from the west coast.

The $8500 18k is actually a private seller.

So, I'm thinking the 55k miles for $7500 is probably the best value I have right now. The issue is there's apparently a low supply of used Leafs in Chicagoland. I could wait to see if a better deal comes to my local market. Do you think prices will get cheaper?
I see. Yeah, from looking at https://chicago.craigslist.org/search/cta?sort=priceasc&searchNearby=1&auto_make_model=nissan+leaf&min_auto_year=2013&max_auto_year=2014, there appears to be little supply on CL for your area. And, I think I see the $8500 car (now $8300) at https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/6068181822.html. I love his statement "Never seen a bad review". Ummm, I've seen plenty (right or wrong).

I do think prices will get cheaper once 30 kWh Leafs ('16 SV and SL and the quietly introduced '16 "S 30" near the end of the cycle) hit lease end and are returned. And, more and more longer range EVs should become available (e.g. Gen 2 Leaf) besides the Bolt becoming more available.

I hear you about buying a car sight unseen and the shipping. :(

The supply in your area appears to be a prob. I guess for CA, we have the luxury of so many EV and PHEV choices and competition (anything at http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ that had non-0 sales in March 2017 is available here) + benefits like carpool lane stickers. And, many people just lease them and return them at the end, ensuring used supply.
 
SageBrush said:
natkra90 said:
Even if there's a 10% difference in SOH, it's hard to justify paying an extra 13%. Any advice is appreciated.
I suggest thinking about this differently. As Cwerdna prompted, you have to consider the battery in the context of your use case and how long you want the car to meet your requirements.

Example: you plan on a 40 mile commute and due to Chicago weather, bump that trip number use requirement to 60 between charges. Figure on losing 5% SoC a year which is worth around 5 miles. A 12 bar car can be anywhere from 85- 100% SoC. A little arithmetic shows you that a 10% SoC difference between cars is huge, FOR THIS USE CASE. It can be the difference between the car meeting your needs two years or four years.

A spreadsheet would make this type of calc clear, or you can plug in the number of years (Y) you want the car to last into this equation that shows the required range of the car bought today:
Range_Today = 60/0.95^N

Since Range reported on the car is user dependent, translate it into SoC based on 84 miles range in a new car:
Range_ Today/84 = SoC today

I'm sorry. I don't follow the spreadsheet thing. Your estimates of battery degradation seem generous to me. I used Sloaty's Battery Capacity Estimation Worksheet to see what to expect along with the Battery Capacity Loss Tool found at http://www.casteyanqui.com/ev/_articles/ce201307p38-40.pdf. It looks like most 2013's in a similar climate to mine are following these predictions pretty accurately so far. Most people have reported losing about 30% capacity sub-freezing temps as you allude to as well. Based on all the data I've been able to collect, I should be able to get at least 4-5 more years out of it with having a range of at least 40 miles during the winter. Most models show a slowdown of capacity loss after 36 months. Where do you figure on losing 5%/year?
 
cwerdna said:
I see. Yeah, from looking at https://chicago.craigslist.org/search/cta?sort=priceasc&searchNearby=1&auto_make_model=nissan+leaf&min_auto_year=2013&max_auto_year=2014, there appears to be little supply on CL for your area. And, I think I see the $8500 car (now $8300) at https://chicago.craigslist.org/sox/cto/6068181822.html. I love his statement "Never seen a bad review". Ummm, I've seen plenty (right or wrong).

I do think prices will get cheaper once 30 kWh Leafs ('16 SV and SL and the quietly introduced '16 "S 30" near the end of the cycle) hit lease end and are returned. And, more and more longer range EVs should become available (e.g. Gen 2 Leaf) besides the Bolt becoming more available.

I hear you about buying a car sight unseen and the shipping. :(

The supply in your area appears to be a prob. I guess for CA, we have the luxury of so many EV and PHEV choices and competition (anything at http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/ that had non-0 sales in March 2017 is available here) + benefits like carpool lane stickers. And, many people just lease them and return them at the end, ensuring used supply.

lol. I actually called him to feel him out. He said there's no way he's going under $8,000 even without an L3 charger, so I don't think I'll be going with that option unless there's like 99% soh, or he drops his price, because I would be paying a higher interest rate financing with him vs a dealer.

I think I'm going to go ahead and check out the 55k model. If it has over 90% soh, I'll probably pull the trigger if they drop their price a little. If not, I'll need to get a really good price, or wait for a better option.
 
natkra90 said:
I'm sorry. I don't follow the spreadsheet thing. Your estimates of battery degradation seem generous to me. I used Sloaty's Battery Capacity Estimation Worksheet to see what to expect along
Stoaty developed his battery capacity loss model during the '11 and '12 battery capacity loss fiasco. I'm unaware of any changes to it to account for what appear to be significantly better batteries beginning w/build months 4/2013 (possibly 5/2013). '13 Leafs built before 4/2013 seem to no better than '11s and '12s. We have no idea when the switch actually happened. For all we know, it happened in late 3/2013, 4/1/2013, 4/15/2013, etc.

If no changes were made, Stoaty's model is invalid for 4/2013+ built Leafs.
natkra90 said:
Never heard of that page until now. I don't read that guy's blogs, but Mark Larsen's name rings a bell. Do a search for him. Below are some posts referencing him back in 2012. My memory is foggy now, but I think I have now recall having reasons to not bother reading his posts, PDFs, etc.

Also, since the date of the PDF is July 2013, there was NO WAY we knew that 4/2013+ build month Leafs were holding up better in terms of heat related degradation and calendar losses. It was only discovered probably 2 years after that. Nissan never announced any sort of battery loss improvements/more heat resistance in customer cars until the lizard battery announcement (became available w/model year 2015: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168). I don't recall either having any idea or being convinced 4/2013+ Leafs being better when I was in the market in July 2015. Prior to my purchase, I was quite active here on MNL, just as am now.

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=235015&hilit=larsen#p235015
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=235025&hilit=larsen#p235025
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=235033&hilit=larsen#p235033
 
cwerdna said:
natkra90 said:
I'm sorry. I don't follow the spreadsheet thing. Your estimates of battery degradation seem generous to me. I used Sloaty's Battery Capacity Estimation Worksheet to see what to expect along
Stoaty developed his battery capacity loss model during the '11 and '12 battery capacity loss fiasco. I'm unaware of any changes to it to account for what appear to be significantly better batteries beginning w/build months 4/2013 (possibly 5/2013). '13 Leafs built before 4/2013 seem to no better than '11s and '12s. We have no idea when the switch actually happened. For all we know, it happened in late 3/2013, 4/1/2013, 4/15/2013, etc.

If no changes were made, Stoaty's model is invalid for 4/2013+ built Leafs.
natkra90 said:
Never heard of that page until now. I don't read that guy's blogs, but Mark Larsen's name rings a bell. Do a search for him. Below are some posts referencing him back in 2012. My memory is foggy now, but I think I have now recall having reasons to not bother reading his posts, PDFs, etc.

Also, since the date of the PDF is July 2013, there was NO WAY we knew that 4/2013+ build month Leafs were holding up better in terms of heat related degradation and calendar losses. It was only discovered probably 2 years after that. Nissan never announced any sort of battery loss improvements/more heat resistance in customer cars until the lizard battery announcement (became available w/model year 2015: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168). I don't recall either having any idea or being convinced 4/2013+ Leafs being better when I was in the market in July 2015. Prior to my purchase, I was quite active here on MNL, just as am now.

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=235015&hilit=larsen#p235015
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=235025&hilit=larsen#p235025
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=235033&hilit=larsen#p235033

Stoaty's model is outdated, but I would think that the 2013 would be better which would make the model a worst-case scenario. Thanks for the heads-up about Mark Larsen. I'll disregard his stuff. Do you really think the 2013 will depreciate 5% per year? If that's the case, I might consider getting a 500e in stead.
 
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