cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 6853
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:35 am

alozzy wrote:This is the source article for that graph, for those who are interested in more info:

http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-c ... c-vehicle/

I never looked at that page until now. Tony Williams asked some legitimate questions and my conclusion is that their data is crap and the graph is not very meaningful.

We have no idea how low the drivers were going in terms of SoC and the range is going to depend in many factors (e.g. speed, temp, weather conditions (dry, rain, snow, slush, etc.), HVAC usage, how much up/downhill, etc. If drivers ran cars past VLBW vs. calling it quits well before like even before LBW, that'd make a big difference in what they assert is range.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:13 am

With a round trip commute of only 40 miles, you could lose quite a bit of capacity and still make the round trip. The S does not have the heat pump so the resistance heater will consume more power in the "winter" but the A/C might be slightly more efficient in the summer than an SV or SL (my 2015 uses more energy for A/C than my 2011 did--probably due to black leather interior vs. light color recycled plastic cloth in 2011 and possible slight efficiency difference between heat pump and A/C only unit).

The graph of range vs. temperature does not match my experience. The range does not drop off at high temperatures nearly as much as the graph shows (even if there are numerous short trips on one charge so A/C is cooling down hot car many times). Also, the range drops more at low temperatures if resistance heater is used heavily.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

alozzy
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:07 am

With respect to the chart, it's possible that some data provided by some loggers was crap but it seems very unlikely that, on aggregate, the data from thousands of drivers is inaccurate.

A few things...

All of the results were created from FleetCarma real-world vehicle loggers installed on vehicles all across North America.


And:

The key take-away: temperature has a significant impact on range, but the driver holds a lot of sway over exactly how big that impact is


The point is, this is aggregated data from thousands of Leafs and, as individuals, our own experiences will very likely be different.

Also, although there are some outliers as noted in the article, the graph data points from which the curve was derived don't seem to have an obviously huge standard deviation.

Take issue with it if you like, but I feel it has value.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

Dooglas
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:19 am

alozzy wrote:The point is, this is aggregated data from thousands of Leafs and, as individuals, our own experiences will very likely be different. Also, although there are some outliers as noted in the article, the graph data points from which the curve was derived don't seem to have an obviously huge standard deviation. Take issue with it if you like, but I feel it has value.

That graph shows a decrease in range of 25% between an air temperature of 70 F and 95 F. That is a common daily differential in the summer in the area in which I live. I have never experienced a range differential that large under those circumstances. No one else reading this thread has commented that they have either. Are we all outliers?
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30

alozzy
Posts: 531
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:02 pm

What's the point in being argumentative? If you take issue with the results, then argue with the authors.

If you don't trust the results, just ignore them.

My intention wasn't to hijack the thread, I was trying to help out the OP. How about we all focus on that instead.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

BuckMkII
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:11 pm

Dooglas wrote:That graph shows a decrease in range of 25% between an air temperature of 70 F and 95 F. That is a common daily differential in the summer in the area in which I live. I have never experienced a range differential that large under those circumstances.


Are you driving far through heavy traffic? I haven't tried to do the calculation, but just at the hand-waving level, I could see someone stuck in a slow commute and running the AC at a high level full time would suffer a significant reduction in range.
2013 SV no QC, manufactured July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17 : AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250

Dooglas
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:59 pm

BuckMkII wrote:
Dooglas wrote:That graph shows a decrease in range of 25% between an air temperature of 70 F and 95 F. That is a common daily differential in the summer in the area in which I live. I have never experienced a range differential that large under those circumstances.

Are you driving far through heavy traffic? I haven't tried to do the calculation, but just at the hand-waving level, I could see someone stuck in a slow commute and running the AC at a high level full time would suffer a significant reduction in range.

No, I am seldom bogged down in heavy traffic and I avoid AC or use it lightly as needed. Your comments point out the inaccuracy of the graphed relationship. If it relies on being in heavier traffic at higher temperatures plus excessive use of AC, then it is not really a relationship to air temperature at all.
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30

BuckMkII
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:26 pm

It is not a relationship between the air temperature and the battery performance, but that does not mean it isn't a relationship between the air temperature (and insolation) and demands of a typical user for AC and comfort, which leads to an EFFECTIVE range reduction for the overall system. That's a completely valid, practical assessment of the car as one of many options for personal transportation.
2013 SV no QC, manufactured July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17 : AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250

BenAzLeaf
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:43 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2017
Location: Chandler AZ

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:54 am

Thanks for all of the info. I did not expect such a great surge of posts. I must say that there is a lot to digest here. My takeaway is that I should be prepared for reduced range. I think that with the vehicle there are tradeoffs and you need to consider them. I am primarily purchasing as a commuter during the months of August-May 20 miles each way mixed freeway and streets. About 6 miles on streets and 14 on the highway. I know the highway zaps range.

I have been researching a lot about the vehicle and think I am ready to buy, knowing the trade-offs I would make. I figure at 7k dollars It would basically be free (i have been commuting in my Tacoma.) I have other vehicles available and would drive this as a commuter for 3 years, then hand it to my daughter who would be a driver at that time. I would then purchase another EV (Leaf or ?) once there is more track record etc with the EV. I don't want a hybrid etc. I want purely BEV only.

I think this is a pretty safe move and for the money even if in three years it is worth only 3k dollars. At that point I could either put a new pack in or, maybe the battery will have been covered by warranty etc....?

Call me crazy but I really dig the funky styling of the leaf, I especially love the rear end.

BuckMkII
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 8:04 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:30 am

BenAzLeaf wrote:I am primarily purchasing as a commuter during the months of August-May 20 miles each way mixed freeway and streets. About 6 miles on streets and 14 on the highway. I know the highway zaps range.


When I did my test drive a couple of weeks ago (2013 SV, SOH showing 86%, now showing 84%) I drove 23 miles, mostly on I-5 in Seattle, which is slightly hilly. (Hopefully the link below works and gives the elevation profile. Net elevation was -10 feet, with about 500 feet of up and down.) Traffic was just loose enough that one could have weaved through lanes to maintain over 70 mph (people in Seattle drive really slowly, and most were barely exceeding the 60 mph limit), so it didn't really affect how I drove.
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=7089388
I set the cruise control at 54 mph on the freeway and put up with being a rolling chicane. LeafSpy claimed 5.4 mi/kWh over that route, which seems WAY too good. I would not bet on getting that during your commute!!! Range chart predicts more like 4.3 at 55 mph, but the last couple of miles at barely over 30 mph with no stops would have helped raise the average. Tires (original, close to needing replacement so nice and light and supple!) were only at 33 PSI cold. Starting battery was 71.9% SOC, 174 GIDs, 61.9% GIDs. Ending values were 51.4% SOC, delta SOC -20.5%, 115 GIDs, 40.9% GIDs.

The next day, I went back and drove a similar car (except with non-OEM tires, near-new Yoko Avid Ascend BluEarth, at 40 PSI) over that route but drove "normally:" about 65 mph (briefly up to seventyish), no cruise control, in B/non-ECO. That drive logged in LS as 3.9 mi/kWH and consumed 85 GIDs; delta SOC -28%.

Can't say how much of the difference is speed and how much was the tires, but clearly seemingly small changes add up to a pretty big difference. From other threads here, it seems the tires *may* be to blame for most of the difference, but that is pretty close to the mi/kWh shown in the range chart for that speed, unlike the first day on which I seem to have somehow over-performed by a lot. I hope my painfully noob experience is useful somehow.

Climate control was off for all of this, except that the fan was running on low. Outside temp was low 60s both days. You can multiply the hours of your commute by whatever the typical rate of AC power consumption is, adjusted for your tolerance for sweating, and figure out how badly that will cut into your range.

Call me crazy but I really dig the funky styling of the leaf, I especially love the rear end.

I like the looks of the rear OK, but visibility for backing up is pretty crappy. I'd like a bigger rear glass and smaller C pillars for that reason. Maybe they were trying to limit glass area back there to reduce insolation?
2013 SV no QC, manufactured July 2013
car grew up in San Jose CA, purchased 5/31/17 in Seattle
on 6/16/17 : AHr = 56.4; SOH = 86%; Hx = 84.3; ODO = 39,250

Return to “New Members & Newbie Questions”