Should I Buy this 2014 leaf s?

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BenAzLeaf

New member
Joined
Jun 8, 2017
Messages
4
Location
Chandler AZ
Your thoughts on a leaf I'm looking to buy. 2014 s with dcqc and 6.6 charger. Here are some stats.
30k miles manufacture march 2014. It is a lease return.
Ahr is 58.6
Soh is 85
Shows 12 bars
9 qc
766 l1 l2 charge
Nd 82.65

Drove 22 miles in 108 degree weather
Ac on full
Used 93 gids
Soc from 82percent to 49.8percent

Thoughts on purchase? Asking 7k for it.
 
Based on the 32% discharge test you did, expect the full range to be about 70 miles.

84 miles (when new) x 0.85 (SOH) = 71 miles, so your test drive would seem to confirm that the Leaf Spy data is legit (no BMS reset).

It's going to lose the 1st capacity bar very soon.

Sounds like you live in a hot climate, so only buy if you can live with 50 miles of range between charges a few years from now.
 
Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it. Your handle implies you live in AZ, but I don't know how hot your area is. But since you mention 108 degrees, maybe Phoenix or even hotter?

What are your daily driving needs in terms of miles? How much city vs. highway? Will you have the ability to charge at your work/destinations?

Where did the car reside before? When was the original in-service date?

If you're in Phoenix, I'm going to guess (w/the limited info so far and thus guesses I have to make) that it might lose enough capacity to be eligible for free battery replacement before the 5 year/60K capacity warranty expires.
 
Yes. I live in az. Phoenix to be exact. This leaf is from California. My commute is 20 miles each way. I do not commute during summer. I am an educator and summer I only would use it for short trips as needed. We have a family minivan for traveling on trips.
 
Where in California? Palo Alto is a lot different from, say, Bakersfield in terms of charging temperatures.
 
Based on the 32% discharge test you did, expect the full range to be about 70 miles.

That would be with no A/C, heat or freeway driving. A more realistic range would be 60 miles. My 2013 with SOH of about 87% has a usable range (without going much below LBW of about 60-65 miles in Summer, and that's with no freeway driving and reduced A/C use.
 
I was basing that estimate on the empirical numbers the OP provided.

Drove 22 miles in 108 degree weather, AC on full, used 93 gids, SOC from 82% to 49.8%

Since GIDs are linearly related to kWh, the 32% drop is odd since (93 GIDS x 80 kWh/GID)/0.32 = 23 kWh of pack capacity. I must be misunderstanding something, or the SOC drop is inaccurate, because I would have thought his useable pack capacity would be closer to 18 kWh. 23 kWh seems way too high.

Anyways, here's my math:

Driving 22 miles consumed 93 GIDs (93 GIDs x 80 kWh/Gid = 7.4 kWh) while driving in extreme temperatures. Based on his 85% SOH, I conservatively estimate his pack capacity as 18 kWh.

So, (22 miles x 18 kWh)/7.4 kWh = 53 miles total range when driving at those extreme temperatures.

So, you're right, I was overly optimistic about the improved range when driving at more moderate temps.

FYI, I found this chart online, which shows the impact of ambient temperature on range:

Leaf-Volt_Range_Cold_Weather_FleetCarma.png


According to that chart, at temps over 100F, the range with a "typical" Leaf pack would be a little under 60 miles. Amazing what a difference temperature makes, considering wind resistance is lower with higher air temperatures. Based on the chart, there's roughly a 25% drop in range between driving at 70F and driving at over 100F. If so, 53 miles at 108F would translate to around 66 miles at 70F.
 
Presumably that chart is based on actual miles driven with climate control as selected by real world users?
 
BuckMkII said:
Where in California? Palo Alto is a lot different from, say, Bakersfield in terms of charging temperatures.
Indeed, for the OP, see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=464260#p464260.

Half Moon Bay to Livermore is under 52 miles, yet on one of those days, the former had a high of 61 F and the other was 102 F.
 
This is the source article for that graph, for those who are interested in more info:

http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/
 
alozzy said:
This is the source article for that graph, for those who are interested in more info:

http://www.fleetcarma.com/nissan-leaf-chevrolet-volt-cold-weather-range-loss-electric-vehicle/
I never looked at that page until now. Tony Williams asked some legitimate questions and my conclusion is that their data is crap and the graph is not very meaningful.

We have no idea how low the drivers were going in terms of SoC and the range is going to depend in many factors (e.g. speed, temp, weather conditions (dry, rain, snow, slush, etc.), HVAC usage, how much up/downhill, etc. If drivers ran cars past VLBW vs. calling it quits well before like even before LBW, that'd make a big difference in what they assert is range.
 
With a round trip commute of only 40 miles, you could lose quite a bit of capacity and still make the round trip. The S does not have the heat pump so the resistance heater will consume more power in the "winter" but the A/C might be slightly more efficient in the summer than an SV or SL (my 2015 uses more energy for A/C than my 2011 did--probably due to black leather interior vs. light color recycled plastic cloth in 2011 and possible slight efficiency difference between heat pump and A/C only unit).

The graph of range vs. temperature does not match my experience. The range does not drop off at high temperatures nearly as much as the graph shows (even if there are numerous short trips on one charge so A/C is cooling down hot car many times). Also, the range drops more at low temperatures if resistance heater is used heavily.
 
With respect to the chart, it's possible that some data provided by some loggers was crap but it seems very unlikely that, on aggregate, the data from thousands of drivers is inaccurate.

A few things...

All of the results were created from FleetCarma real-world vehicle loggers installed on vehicles all across North America.

And:

The key take-away: temperature has a significant impact on range, but the driver holds a lot of sway over exactly how big that impact is

The point is, this is aggregated data from thousands of Leafs and, as individuals, our own experiences will very likely be different.

Also, although there are some outliers as noted in the article, the graph data points from which the curve was derived don't seem to have an obviously huge standard deviation.

Take issue with it if you like, but I feel it has value.
 
alozzy said:
The point is, this is aggregated data from thousands of Leafs and, as individuals, our own experiences will very likely be different. Also, although there are some outliers as noted in the article, the graph data points from which the curve was derived don't seem to have an obviously huge standard deviation. Take issue with it if you like, but I feel it has value.
That graph shows a decrease in range of 25% between an air temperature of 70 F and 95 F. That is a common daily differential in the summer in the area in which I live. I have never experienced a range differential that large under those circumstances. No one else reading this thread has commented that they have either. Are we all outliers?
 
What's the point in being argumentative? If you take issue with the results, then argue with the authors.

If you don't trust the results, just ignore them.

My intention wasn't to hijack the thread, I was trying to help out the OP. How about we all focus on that instead.
 
Dooglas said:
That graph shows a decrease in range of 25% between an air temperature of 70 F and 95 F. That is a common daily differential in the summer in the area in which I live. I have never experienced a range differential that large under those circumstances.

Are you driving far through heavy traffic? I haven't tried to do the calculation, but just at the hand-waving level, I could see someone stuck in a slow commute and running the AC at a high level full time would suffer a significant reduction in range.
 
BuckMkII said:
Dooglas said:
That graph shows a decrease in range of 25% between an air temperature of 70 F and 95 F. That is a common daily differential in the summer in the area in which I live. I have never experienced a range differential that large under those circumstances.
Are you driving far through heavy traffic? I haven't tried to do the calculation, but just at the hand-waving level, I could see someone stuck in a slow commute and running the AC at a high level full time would suffer a significant reduction in range.
No, I am seldom bogged down in heavy traffic and I avoid AC or use it lightly as needed. Your comments point out the inaccuracy of the graphed relationship. If it relies on being in heavier traffic at higher temperatures plus excessive use of AC, then it is not really a relationship to air temperature at all.
 
It is not a relationship between the air temperature and the battery performance, but that does not mean it isn't a relationship between the air temperature (and insolation) and demands of a typical user for AC and comfort, which leads to an EFFECTIVE range reduction for the overall system. That's a completely valid, practical assessment of the car as one of many options for personal transportation.
 
Thanks for all of the info. I did not expect such a great surge of posts. I must say that there is a lot to digest here. My takeaway is that I should be prepared for reduced range. I think that with the vehicle there are tradeoffs and you need to consider them. I am primarily purchasing as a commuter during the months of August-May 20 miles each way mixed freeway and streets. About 6 miles on streets and 14 on the highway. I know the highway zaps range.

I have been researching a lot about the vehicle and think I am ready to buy, knowing the trade-offs I would make. I figure at 7k dollars It would basically be free (i have been commuting in my Tacoma.) I have other vehicles available and would drive this as a commuter for 3 years, then hand it to my daughter who would be a driver at that time. I would then purchase another EV (Leaf or ?) once there is more track record etc with the EV. I don't want a hybrid etc. I want purely BEV only.

I think this is a pretty safe move and for the money even if in three years it is worth only 3k dollars. At that point I could either put a new pack in or, maybe the battery will have been covered by warranty etc....?

Call me crazy but I really dig the funky styling of the leaf, I especially love the rear end.
 
BenAzLeaf said:
I am primarily purchasing as a commuter during the months of August-May 20 miles each way mixed freeway and streets. About 6 miles on streets and 14 on the highway. I know the highway zaps range.

When I did my test drive a couple of weeks ago (2013 SV, SOH showing 86%, now showing 84%) I drove 23 miles, mostly on I-5 in Seattle, which is slightly hilly. (Hopefully the link below works and gives the elevation profile. Net elevation was -10 feet, with about 500 feet of up and down.) Traffic was just loose enough that one could have weaved through lanes to maintain over 70 mph (people in Seattle drive really slowly, and most were barely exceeding the 60 mph limit), so it didn't really affect how I drove.
http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=7089388
I set the cruise control at 54 mph on the freeway and put up with being a rolling chicane. LeafSpy claimed 5.4 mi/kWh over that route, which seems WAY too good. I would not bet on getting that during your commute!!! Range chart predicts more like 4.3 at 55 mph, but the last couple of miles at barely over 30 mph with no stops would have helped raise the average. Tires (original, close to needing replacement so nice and light and supple!) were only at 33 PSI cold. Starting battery was 71.9% SOC, 174 GIDs, 61.9% GIDs. Ending values were 51.4% SOC, delta SOC -20.5%, 115 GIDs, 40.9% GIDs.

The next day, I went back and drove a similar car (except with non-OEM tires, near-new Yoko Avid Ascend BluEarth, at 40 PSI) over that route but drove "normally:" about 65 mph (briefly up to seventyish), no cruise control, in B/non-ECO. That drive logged in LS as 3.9 mi/kWH and consumed 85 GIDs; delta SOC -28%.

Can't say how much of the difference is speed and how much was the tires, but clearly seemingly small changes add up to a pretty big difference. From other threads here, it seems the tires *may* be to blame for most of the difference, but that is pretty close to the mi/kWh shown in the range chart for that speed, unlike the first day on which I seem to have somehow over-performed by a lot. I hope my painfully noob experience is useful somehow.

Climate control was off for all of this, except that the fan was running on low. Outside temp was low 60s both days. You can multiply the hours of your commute by whatever the typical rate of AC power consumption is, adjusted for your tolerance for sweating, and figure out how badly that will cut into your range.

Call me crazy but I really dig the funky styling of the leaf, I especially love the rear end.
I like the looks of the rear OK, but visibility for backing up is pretty crappy. I'd like a bigger rear glass and smaller C pillars for that reason. Maybe they were trying to limit glass area back there to reduce insolation?
 
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