SageBrush
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:09 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
...Johnlocke has a 30kwh pack, and is amongst a group of owners who are experiencing excessively rapid degradation...

AFAIK, only rapid gid loss has been reported, and on only some of the packs.

Time to pull your head out of your nether regions.

It *would* be interesting to to see charge data, but it is hardly necessary. You may not have noticed that Nissan itself goes by capacity bars lost in deciding when to replace the battery. Any (in my opinion unwarranted) skepticism is easily put to rest with a range test that takes fuel efficiency into account. Do you have a physical rationale to explain why Ahr and SOH correlate so well with capacity bar loss in the 24 kWh batteries but would not in a 30 kWh pack ?

Of course not. I think you are just promoting a test that you know few people can perform.

So with all respect due, F off.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:03 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
...Johnlocke has a 30kwh pack, and is amongst a group of owners who are experiencing excessively rapid degradation...

AFAIK, only rapid gid loss has been reported, and on only some of the packs.

Anyone reported actual recharge capacity test results for their "30 kWh" packs?

As I posted a month ago on the 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses thread:

viewtopic.php?f=30&p=506232
[/quote]

Ummm, NO. He's down 2 bars. I'll save you the legwork: http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 80#p506531

That's far more than "just gid loss".
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs]

Evoforce
Posts: 645
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:26 pm

This is the sad part. We own 2 Leafs that we thought were going to be substantially better once the original batteries were replaced with the supposedly much more heat tolerant batteries. They are marginal at best. We trusted that the original batteries were good... Nope! We trusted that the Lizard batteries were to be much better... Nope! We thought that the 30 kWh battery was hopefully better... looking like probably not!

For someone to say that we shouldn't have purchased our cars, hindsight is 20/20. We were hoping that they could prove to us that the 2018 model would go over 200 miles per charge and have a long lasting battery pack and we are again disappointed. Nissan has produced a very good car in every other way but will not acknowledge its battery short comings. This comes at their expense and at our expense.

We really want (and wanted) to support them but so far they have not done what is needed to have a long lasting battery pack because of poor engineering. We can only hope that the 2019 Model Leaf will do better. I am gun shy and others should be too. They need to prove how their 2019 battery will do better. I had really hoped that the 2018 Model was going to be their shining star but they got caught on their heels. Let's cross our fingers for 2019...
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12235
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:37 am

edatoakrun wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
...Johnlocke has a 30kwh pack, and is amongst a group of owners who are experiencing excessively rapid degradation...

AFAIK, only rapid gid loss has been reported, and on only some of the packs.

Anyone reported actual recharge capacity test results for their "30 kWh" packs?

As I posted a month ago on the 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses thread:



had to quote you but when I got to that recharge thing you were talking about I was laughing so hard, my mouse accidentally deleted it all... sorry, I didn't mean to...


anyway... on your claims; I am up to OVER 40 LEAFs early build 30 kwh packs who didn't do the recharge test you were talking about but have lost at least one capacity bar. In fact, I am just barely under half of the above mentioned 40+ LEAFs who have LOST TWO CAPACITY BARS.

along with a significant percentage that LOST TWO CAPACITY BARS AND DID IT IN LESS THAN 15,000 MILES...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

johnlocke
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:18 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
johnlocke wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:...Why do those who have such serious anxiety regarding battery temperatures in passively manged packs keep buying LEAFs, and continue sharing their insecurities on this forum?

...I have a 22 mo. old car with 35,000 mi on it and only 73% of its original capacity!..

That is, IMO, extremely unlikely.

How did you determine the original and present capacity?

Owners of "24 kWh" pack LEAFs are fortunate to have the one BEV for which multiple studies on battery capacity loss have been conducted.

You are claiming that your pack has lost a higher percentage of initial capacity in 35,000 miles, than did the four 2012 LEAFs tested over 50,000 miles, subject to brutally high temperatures (all packs averaging over 100F for many months at a time) and the most punishing charge/discharge cycles.

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... et_EOT.pdf

Full report here:

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files ... ffects.pdf

It would have required a monumental effort on your part to reproduce those extreme conditions in your relatively moderate climate.

When you state:

johnlocke wrote:...I have a 22 mo. old car with 35,000 mi on it and only 73% of its original capacity!..

Do you really mean that is what your LBC says your capacity loss is?

And why do you want to believe that Nissan builds a pack with that poor durability, but also that the LBC report is infallible?

My LEAF has a march 2011 build date, over 56,000 miles in a climate only slightly less warm than yours in Summer, and all indications from recharge capacity and range tests are that my pack has now lost close to 20% of its initial capacity (see my six-year-report quoted below) while my LBC now reports over 33.5% capacity loss (44.03 AHr and 66.46%).

...After more than six years, I've never run out of Wh, and never really suffered from "range anxiety" (charge-site anxiety yes, frequently) and largely credit my never relying on my LBC for its estimates of remaining energy capacity or battery capacity loss, for this experience.

Instead of relying on the LBC, I prefer to use only high-integrity data sources, primarily AVTA test results:

https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-button/2012-nissan-leaf

And parameters that can be measured accurately, kWh received from the grid, miles driven, and time.

Knowing the approximate nominal kWh available to LBW and VLB from my initial charge of "80%" or "100%", and watching the Nav screen m/kWh while I drive, I know both my nominal kWh used, and what are the approximate N kWh remaining wherever I drive, and can avoid all anxiety caused by the often "pessimistic" estimates from the LBC, of kWh remaining.

I also have a pretty good idea of what my LEAF's total and available battery capacity loss over time has been.

At six years and 52 k miles, my best estimates are:

My LEAF's pack had slightly under 19 kWh total capacity (as per AVTA test standards) and about 17 kWh available, when warm, at ~80 F.

That's about a 21% reduction from the 24 kWh Nissan specified, and ~18.5% lower than the average capacity Nissan actually delivered in 2012, according to AVTA testing of multiple LEAF packs...

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23733&start=40

Back on-topic.

If any of you are really anxious (or even only concerned) about the "40 kWh" 2018 LEAF's "40 kWh" pack's passive thermal management, just don't buy one.

Unlike seven years ago when the LEAF was the only real option, there are now several decent BEVs out there with complex thermal management systems.

But I doubt that will still be the case in a few more years, as the path to obsolescence for ATM is already fairly clear, IMO.

I haven't performed your test procedure but this is what I have done. I drive the same commute five days a week with only minor variations. The basic commute is 55 miles round trip. When new, the car used 51-55% of the capacity of the battery as measured by the Nissan % gauge on the dash. Currently it uses 70-75% of capacity. I am currently down 2 bars and expect to lose the third soon..

Just to do the math for you, assuming 28 KWH when new, I use between 14.3-15.5 KWH per trip. Currently then, the battery's max capacity is about 20.5 KWH or about 73% of original capacity. This agrees with reports from Nissan as to when the bars disappear. This also agrees with the readouts from Leafspy. When new, Leafspy reported 363 GID's or 28.13 KWH, it now reports 268 GID's or 21.03 KWH. I don't know about you but that seems pretty close to me.

As to my mild climate, I live in east San Diego County in the mountains at 2000 ft. My climate is closer to Phoenix then San Diego. The weather reports you see for San Diego are from the coast not inland. If you doubt my word, check Weather Underground station CAJAMUL8. That's my personal weather station.

By the way, I never use the guess-o-meter. I always use the percent charge screen. The last 12 miles of my day are always the same. Uphill with a 1500 foot elevation change. I wouldn't attempt it with less than a 30% charge and I'd prefer it to be over 40%. That's why I waited for a 30KWH battery in the first place. At this point I have to plan to DCFC somewhere if I have even a few extra errands to run. A 30KWH battery would suit me fine, it's just that now I seem to have a 20KWH instead.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7192
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:20 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Dooglas wrote:
cwerdna wrote:It's not even the worst case. I wish I could find the thread where I asked '11 and '12 Leaf batteries essentially, how many '11 or '12 Leafs will still be on their original batteries and have at least 70 to 80% of original capacity. I got a couple answers of 0.

Hmmm, You asked how many '11 and '12 LEAFs are still on their original battery pack and have 70% to 80% of original capacity. And 2 people responded by guessing none?!? What were the other guesses? How is that useful?

I wish I could find the thread. It was intended to be a poll. It illustrates how far short Nissan fell short of their claims (see viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22446&p=469608&hilit=percent+perry#p469608).

I doubt very many (if any) in the mild Pacific NW at 10 years on an '11 or '12 Leaf that's still on the original pack will have 70% capacity remaining.

There was a similar thread covering those Leafs but with 80% remaining after 5 years: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16236.

FWIW, a guy in the Seattle area at https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattle ... 855561711/ posted about his 6th bar going away at about 67.5K miles. He also posted Leaf Spy stats and timelines at to when he lost each bar. Looks like he got his Leaf around 4/2011.

Clearly, this is an example of original Leaf batteries falling far short of capacity claims in a very mild climate.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12235
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:07 am

cwerdna wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
Dooglas wrote:Hmmm, You asked how many '11 and '12 LEAFs are still on their original battery pack and have 70% to 80% of original capacity. And 2 people responded by guessing none?!? What were the other guesses? How is that useful?

I wish I could find the thread. It was intended to be a poll. It illustrates how far short Nissan fell short of their claims (see viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22446&p=469608&hilit=percent+perry#p469608).

I doubt very many (if any) in the mild Pacific NW at 10 years on an '11 or '12 Leaf that's still on the original pack will have 70% capacity remaining.

There was a similar thread covering those Leafs but with 80% remaining after 5 years: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16236.

FWIW, a guy in the Seattle area at https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattle ... 855561711/ posted about his 6th bar going away at about 67.5K miles. He also posted Leaf Spy stats and timelines at to when he lost each bar. Looks like he got his Leaf around 4/2011.

Clearly, this is an example of original Leaf batteries falling far short of capacity claims in a very mild climate.


Time alone would have taken everyone out... or at least that is what it appears. But do we really know that? I lost 12% in 3 years and 45,000 miles and it appears mileage/cycling is a small factor. Steve Marsh lost his first bar at 73,000 (which at the time was astounding but would be merely "ok" today) but in slightly over two years. Others lost bars in the 3-4 year range regardless of miles, patterns of use, etc.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:13 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote: Steve Marsh lost his first bar at 73,000 (which at the time was astounding but would be merely "ok" today

WTF are you talking about ?

I would sign on the dotted line today to know that my LEAF would stay at 12 bars until 65k miles.
For every Steve Marsh case, I suspect there are dozens if not hundreds who have lost a bar by 15k miles.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

cwerdna
Gold Member
Posts: 7192
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:27 am

SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: Steve Marsh lost his first bar at 73,000 (which at the time was astounding but would be merely "ok" today

WTF are you talking about ?

I would sign on the dotted line today to know that my LEAF would stay at 12 bars until 65k miles.
For every Steve Marsh case, I suspect there are dozens if not hundreds who have lost a bar by 15k miles.

Well, Steve and Dave both live in mild climates so his perspectives are likely different.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattle ... 036995594/ was a Pacific NW '13 Leaf (unknown build month) that didn't lose its 1st bar until 92.7K miles on July 6, 2017.

My 5/13 built '13 Leaf is still at 12 bars past 49K miles, but since my climate's not that mild, I highly doubt I'll have 12 bars at 65K miles given what I'm seeing in Leaf Spy.

(Steve was down 5 bars at 141K miles in July 2015 per viewtopic.php?p=431911.)

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12235
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
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Contact: Website

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:35 am

cwerdna wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: Steve Marsh lost his first bar at 73,000 (which at the time was astounding but would be merely "ok" today

WTF are you talking about ?

I would sign on the dotted line today to know that my LEAF would stay at 12 bars until 65k miles.
For every Steve Marsh case, I suspect there are dozens if not hundreds who have lost a bar by 15k miles.

Well, Steve and Dave both live in mild climates so his perspectives are likely different.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattle ... 036995594/ was a Pacific NW '13 Leaf (unknown build month) that didn't lose its 1st bar until 92.7K miles on July 6, 2017.

My 5/13 built '13 Leaf is still at 12 bars past 49K miles, but since my climate's not that mild, I highly doubt I'll have 12 bars at 65K miles given what I'm seeing in Leaf Spy.

(Steve was down 5 bars at 141K miles in July 2015 per viewtopic.php?p=431911.)


Climate wouldn't matter since everything I was talking about was Western WA cars.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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