lorenfb
Posts: 1387
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:39 am

Durandal wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Durandal wrote:
In any event, I'd rather have an intermittent energy penalty of 300w-500w continuous and have a traction battery that gets an extra year or two of longevity than to save that 300w-500w of usage and have a vehicle that is less than practical after 7 years time.


That's your guess on the power 'hit'! Do have a design for a proposed system that Nissan can use?
If one uses your worst case number (500W) and 24 hr 'on' time in some climates, that's about 12 kWh of energy per day.
Obviously, a good portion of that energy would be supplied when connected for charging.

Do you have some snark that Nissan can use? If you read my bloody original message, I suggested ATM that would only be used when discharging or charging the battery, which is when more of the heat damage would be done versus when it's sitting idle. It's ridiculous to suggest that such a system would run 24 hours a day.


Yes, just having a cooling process active during charging would be beneficial, but that would be secondary to reducing
the effects from ambient temperature extremes for some. Besides, once you introduce a battery cooling system,
the battery then needs to be insulated from the vehicle's chassis, which then reduces the chassis' effect as a heat sink
necessitating on-going cooling - more power consumption.

- Anecdotal -

During L3 charging for about 15 minutes, my battery temp changes about 2-4 deg C, whereas driving here in SoCal
for about four hours results in an increase in battery temp about 10 deg C during the summer.

rmay635703
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:18 am

edatoakrun wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
...Seven years ago, The LEAF was (and still is) a far superior BEV for most buyers, for having the "better" conductive battery cooling design...

rmay635703 wrote:My 2013 volt meanwhile uses the same kwhrs to charge today 47,000 miles later as it did new.
Discharges the same 10.3kwhrs today as it did new.

This guys EV range is within the margin of error

https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579

Maybe a battery temperature system is a good idea?

No, it's not, and neither was the Gen one Volt, as used by most of its drivers.

The primary message from that link you supplied is what an extremely poor PHEV design the gen one Volt was.

All the extra cost and complexity, all the compromises in interior and room and drivabilty, all the kWh drained from the grid, that Volt still got only ~59 miles of range from each gallon of the ~6,750 gallons gas it used, while emitting ~90,000,000 gallons of C02 just from the tailpipe.

God-only-knows how many more millions of gallons of CO2 this monstrosity produced in the production process, and in generation of electricity so inefficiently used during the ~35% of the miles driven when it was not fueled by gas.

SO WHAT?


You do understand the 400,000 mile Volt was going 85-90mph basically the whole time?

I know Prius drivers who do that and are in the low 30's mpg

Although you or I may disagree with how fast he drives and how far he drove we can't draw the conclusion that he used more energy than any other alternative cars driving a Volt 90mph nor would a leaf have even made the commute he drove day in and day out driving that way.

Think before you speak

edatoakrun
Posts: 4704
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:50 am

Off-topic reply:

rmay635703 wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
...Seven years ago, The LEAF was (and still is) a far superior BEV for most buyers, for having the "better" conductive battery cooling design...

rmay635703 wrote:My 2013 volt meanwhile uses the same kwhrs to charge today 47,000 miles later as it did new.
Discharges the same 10.3kwhrs today as it did new.

This guys EV range is within the margin of error

https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579

Maybe a battery temperature system is a good idea?

No, it's not, and neither was the Gen one Volt, as used by most of its drivers.

The primary message from that link you supplied is what an extremely poor PHEV design the gen one Volt was.

All the extra cost and complexity, all the compromises in interior and room and drivabilty, all the kWh drained from the grid, that Volt still got only ~59 miles of range from each gallon of the ~6,750 gallons gas it used, while emitting ~90,000,000 gallons of C02 just from the tailpipe.

God-only-knows how many more millions of gallons of CO2 this monstrosity produced in the production process, and in generation of electricity so inefficiently used during the ~35% of the miles driven when it was not fueled by gas.

SO WHAT?

...You do understand the 400,000 mile Volt was going 85-90mph basically the whole time?..

YOU post the link, then YOU complain it is not representative? of Chevy Volt's

Post your own Volt efficiency results then.

But first please read the Gen one Volt thread, where the Volt's poor economics and efficiency have already been discussed thoroughly, and post there if you have a further comment.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=713&start=2390

But first, please do explain how this Volt gets ~35% of its miles from the Volts tiny restricted battery capacity, "going 85-90mph basically the whole time".

Sounds like it must be stopping after every 40 or 45 minutes of "85-90mph" driving, and then waiting for a ~3 hour recharge.

That's one hell of a strange way to drive ~40k miles a year...

EV Miles: 141288.21
Total Miles: 399081.11
EV %: 35.4%

https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
Posts: 4704
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:55 am

lorenfb wrote:...once you introduce a battery cooling system,
the battery then needs to be insulated from the vehicle's chassis, which then reduces the chassis' effect as a heat sink
necessitating on-going cooling - more power consumption....

Is insulation of ATM EV battery packs is largely mythical?

Does any BEV manufacturer actually insulate their BEV packs, after the disastrous results shown by the early (insulated pack?) Ford focus E's in AVTA testing?

Seems like insulation is far more of a problem than a solution, except For BEVs cold climates where heat loss is a major concern.

For pack cooling, the cost (in energy consumption, reduced range, reduced battery life?) from the increased energy use/battery cycling required to cool an insulated pack, will be likely tend to exceed the cost of damage (in battery life) from the heat gain from ambient sources in an un-insulated pack.

Now, when some bright engineer develops the first practical actively insulated battery pack, the discussion will change...
no condition is permanent

lorenfb
Posts: 1387
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:36 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
lorenfb wrote:...once you introduce a battery cooling system,
the battery then needs to be insulated from the vehicle's chassis, which then reduces the chassis' effect as a heat sink
necessitating on-going cooling - more power consumption....

Is insulation of ATM EV battery packs is largely mythical?

Does any BEV manufacturer actually insulate their BEV packs, after the disastrous results shown by the early (insulated pack?) Ford focus E's in AVTA testing?

Seems like insulation is far more of a problem than a solution, except For BEVs cold climates where heat loss is a major concern.

For pack cooling, the cost (in energy consumption, reduced range, reduced battery life?) from the increased energy use/battery cycling required to cool an insulated pack, will be likely tend to exceed the cost of damage (in battery life) from the heat gain from ambient sources in an un-insulated pack.

Now, when some bright engineer develops the first practical actively insulated battery pack, the discussion will change...


Do what?
Last edited by lorenfb on Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rmay635703
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:11 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Off-topic reply:

YOU post the link, then YOU complain it is not representative? of Chevy Volt's

Post your own Volt efficiency results then.

But first, please do explain how this Volt gets ~35% of its miles from the Volts tiny restricted battery capacity, "going 85-90mph basically the whole time

That's one hell of a strange way to drive ~40k miles a year...

EV Miles: 141288.21
Total Miles: 399081.11
EV %: 35.4%

https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579


I do not envy him for certain.
He does charge 3+ times a day and his jobs demands did border on insane, his EV % is slowly moving up because he moved.

As for me

Image

powersurge
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:53 am

I can see that so many conversations about the Leaf, and its limitations turn into "Leaf-bashing", or "Nissan designer-bashing". It is almost like we are talking about the Trump-Hillary debate. No matter how well the Leaf has performed as the first mainstream, low cost EV, it is still getting bashed as inadequate.

Before the Leaf, the best you could do for an electric car was the CITICAR, which could take you a full 15 miles. The Leaf is to gas cars like the Ford Model T car... No matter how bad it was, it was light years ahead of the horse....

Check out the Citicar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVcXgzWEODc

I have a Leaf in NY, and have absolutely no problems with it, or with battery temperature. If you are in hot climates, then don't buy a Leaf and wait until they have resolved the climate problem. That would also motivate car companies to make cars that can run in tropical climates. Currently, people in HOT areas are unrealistically demanding that the car "SHOULD WORK IN HOT CLIMATES", and having a Leaf there is like forcing to have a horse pull a freight train. It will kill the car.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7128
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:17 am

Before the Leaf, the best you could do for an electric car was the CITICAR, which could take you a full 15 miles.


EV-1, Zen Car, Solectria (?) GEM, and, of course, one-off conversions. The Citicar was the Model T, but there were many others before the Leaf.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1648
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:35 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Before the Leaf, the best you could do for an electric car was the CITICAR, which could take you a full 15 miles.


EV-1, Zen Car, Solectria (?) GEM, and, of course, one-off conversions. The Citicar was the Model T, but there were many others before the Leaf.


Yes, but none of those were mass-produced highway-capable cars that you could buy and own. The Leaf was really the first. And to date, it is still the best-selling EV ever built.

I agree with powersurge. In general, people are too quick to bash the Leaf because it isn't everything they need it to be. But in reality, that's asking too much and Nissan did a stellar job of bringing a truly affordable EV to market. No one has matched that yet. The Bolt and Model 3 aren't the same level of affordable.

BTW, there were gas cars before the Model T. But it was the Model T that was the real break-out car.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

Joe6pack
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:57 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 025854

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:51 am

Amen my LEAFy brothers and sisters. My thoughts exactly. Now we are on the cusp of a new LEAF and I cannot wait. Will be interesting to watch the new LEAF and the Model 3 duke it out for sales volume supremacy.
2012 Leaf SL leased October 4th, 2012
Braselton, GA

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