joeriv
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:09 am

Could not agree more! The Leaf is an affordable electric econobox - it does not compete in the same space as the Tesla Model 3 which will go for probably $50,000 after adding in desired options. After 3 1/2 years in CT, zero maintenance, battery at 12 bars, range as a local car was about 75 miles at 80% charge. The only reason I sold it was because I could get $20,500 in rebates to buy a 2017 S.
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11945
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:09 am

joeriv wrote:Could not agree more! The Leaf is an affordable electric econobox - it does not compete in the same space as the Tesla Model 3 which will go for probably $50,000 after adding in desired options. After 3 1/2 years in CT, zero maintenance, battery at 12 bars, range as a local car was about 75 miles at 80% charge. The only reason I sold it was because I could get $20,500 in rebates to buy a 2017 S.


I don't consider the LEAF an econobox even as it sits now and no passengers that I know of do either and due to work, I have had probably several degrees more passengers than most excepting Uber Drivers.

At the same time, I would not consider the LEAF upscale. But there is a significant difference in feel and ambiance when in a cheaper car. that is unmistakeable
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30 (build 10/2016); 22,003 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 101.21% kwh 28.1 QCs 190, L2's 213
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Deltaflyer21
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:37 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2018
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:58 pm

Some mostly well thought out debate here. I just pre-ordered a 2018 with little reservation as to the durability of the battery, and here's why.

First, the Leaf is not a Tesla or a Bolt. They aren't the same price, so comparing isn't terribly fair. If I did compare and hold it against Nissan, or others that don't have liquid cooling, I simply wouldn't have entered the EV market as it would have been wildly outside of our budget.

Second, degradation of the battery happens in all batteries. Sure, a Tesla will lose less over time, but its also a 100 Kwh battery compared to Nissan's current 30 Kwh. From what I understand, the density of the two batteries is very different, albeit similar chemistry, and thus, not a fair comparison. Unless there is third party, impartial data being provided from manufacturers, all we really have are personal accounts, which is something, but frankly not entirely trustworthy.

Finally, the warranty from Nissan, and many others, is 8 years against capacity loss up to %30 (not the overall loss, but the 8 years is). I understand some are very cynical when it comes to these things, but I've read the document and its pretty straight forward and clear. I'm confident that even at its worse loss of 30% after eight years, I'll still be rolling on average close to 170 kms on a charge...not that bad.

I suppose thermal management is nice, but so would have been the budget to pay for it ;).

All submitted respectfully.

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TonyWilliams
Posts: 10021
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:21 pm

It appears that the 2019 LEAF e+ with 60kWh battery and 225 EPA range will have Tempertaure Management of the battery.

Jedlacks
Posts: 128
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:10 pm
Delivery Date: 29 May 2016
Location: Kennesaw, GA

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:30 pm

Deltaflyer21 wrote:Some mostly well thought out debate here. I just pre-ordered a 2018 with little reservation as to the durability of the battery, and here's why.


Count me as one that agrees with everything you just stated. However, my 35,000 miler that still has 12 bars and a 90% SOH, does not appear to be on a fast track to decline enough for the commute to work. i am guessing it will give me 100,000+ miles before it cannot make the 26 mile one way trek, and at that point I will just replace the battery. Truthfully, it will become an issue when it is at 60 miles at 100% charge. Anyway, I am one of those that bought this car for one single reason: drive to and from work.

The 200+ range on these cars do not appeal to me, because it is not the most comfortable car to drive long distances. If I wanted to drive that far I would buy a Tesla, but I would much prefer to fly than to drive and "supercharge". Especially when I will be paying $700+ per month just to say I am driving a Tesla and I am special.
2015 SV QC/LED
Juicebox 40A

Joe6pack
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:57 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 025854

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:49 pm

Tony - where are you getting your info.?
2012 Leaf SL leased October 4th, 2012
Braselton, GA

lorenfb
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:04 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
lorenfb wrote:...once you introduce a battery cooling system,
the battery then needs to be insulated from the vehicle's chassis, which then reduces the chassis' effect as a heat sink
necessitating on-going cooling - more power consumption....

Is insulation of ATM EV battery packs is largely mythical?

Does any BEV manufacturer actually insulate their BEV packs, after the disastrous results shown by the early (insulated pack?) Ford focus E's in AVTA testing?

Seems like insulation is far more of a problem than a solution, except For BEVs cold climates where heat loss is a major concern.

For pack cooling, the cost (in energy consumption, reduced range, reduced battery life?) from the increased energy use/battery cycling required to cool an insulated pack, will be likely tend to exceed the cost of damage (in battery life) from the heat gain from ambient sources in an un-insulated pack.

Now, when some bright engineer develops the first practical actively insulated battery pack, the discussion will change...


Please re-read my post! Your post (logic) is circular - what's the point?

1. I'm not a proponent of TMS when a BEV has limited battery capacity, e.g. Leaf, and the battery is not unstable.
2. If an BEV battery requires TMS, then the battery needs to be insulated from the vehicle's chassis,
i.e. the thermal resistance from the battery to the chassis must be increased or the TMS has basically
little to no effect.
3. Without TMS, insulating or not insulating and the extent of insulation of the battery from the chassis and/or the
environment requires an engineering thermal analysis. In some applications, some form of insulation maybe beneficial.

It's doubtful any forum members have the engineering data to state whether any form of battery insulation is of value,
whether or not TMS is being used, for any BEV.

alozzy
Posts: 600
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:50 pm

I've honestly never understood why people in hot climates buy a Leaf, when they know the pack has no TMS. I only bought a Leaf because I live in a colder climate, so premature pack degradation is far less likely.

If you choose to buy a Leaf, you live in a hot climate, and you do so understanding that the battery pack will degrade much quicker, then you can hardly complain when it does.

I think that Nissan should not sell the Leaf in hotter states, it's just not very ethical - particularly when EV newbies are considering a Leaf with no knowledge of the battery degradation issues.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1599
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:09 am

Deltaflyer21 wrote:Some mostly well thought out debate here. I just pre-ordered a 2018 with little reservation as to the durability of the battery, and here's why.

First, the Leaf is not a Tesla or a Bolt. They aren't the same price, so comparing isn't terribly fair. If I did compare and hold it against Nissan, or others that don't have liquid cooling, I simply wouldn't have entered the EV market as it would have been wildly outside of our budget.

Second, degradation of the battery happens in all batteries. Sure, a Tesla will lose less over time, but its also a 100 Kwh battery compared to Nissan's current 30 Kwh. From what I understand, the density of the two batteries is very different, albeit similar chemistry, and thus, not a fair comparison. Unless there is third party, impartial data being provided from manufacturers, all we really have are personal accounts, which is something, but frankly not entirely trustworthy.

Finally, the warranty from Nissan, and many others, is 8 years against capacity loss up to %30 (not the overall loss, but the 8 years is). I understand some are very cynical when it comes to these things, but I've read the document and its pretty straight forward and clear. I'm confident that even at its worse loss of 30% after eight years, I'll still be rolling on average close to 170 kms on a charge...not that bad.

I suppose thermal management is nice, but so would have been the budget to pay for it ;).

All submitted respectfully.


Excellent, well thought out, respectful first post. Welcome to the forum, Deltaflyer!
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11945
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery temp management for new leaf

Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:13 am

TonyWilliams wrote:It appears that the 2019 LEAF e+ with 60kWh battery and 225 EPA range will have Tempertaure Management of the battery.


With an expected increase in chademo speed as well. Hard to believe otherwise. The real question becomes can they do it all and keep the price down? Its my thinking that is the reason they have not already come out with it. They want to maintain that $30-35K price range or at least near that.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30 (build 10/2016); 22,003 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 101.21% kwh 28.1 QCs 190, L2's 213
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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