Guess-o-meter vs bars help!

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sciencegirl

Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2017
Messages
14
I'm looking at a 2013 Leaf that has me puzzled..... It's showing 12 bars but only 63miles of range. On the charger it showed that it was 91% charged. Dealer said it will go to 73 on a full charge (smirk and doubtful side eye).

I LOVE this particular car. know, I know....I need to see what kind of data I get using Leafspy, but, is this a deal breaker?

Thoughts?
 
The GOM uses the last few minutes of driving to estimate range, and is so generally useless. You need to look at the small capacity bars right next to the charge bars. If there really are 12 of those, then you should have at least that 60 miles of range, barring tampering. 73 miles is for a new 24kwh Leaf in the real world.
 
Range = battery_capacity * consumption_rate
The consumption_rate varies, so it says little about the battery_capacity

UNLESS ...
you zero the consumption_rate meter for one trip, and note the start and end odometer and SoC readings.
Then you can calculate battery capacity. A good 40+ mile drive is needed for accuracy.
 
sciencegirl said:
I'm looking at a 2013 Leaf that has me puzzled..... It's showing 12 bars but only 63miles of range. On the charger it showed that it was 91% charged. Dealer said it will go to 73 on a full charge (smirk and doubtful side eye).

I LOVE this particular car. know, I know....I need to see what kind of data I get using Leafspy, but, is this a deal breaker?

Thoughts?
Take a deep breath and slow down. If they know that you LOVE the car, your sunk. My 2011 with 9 bars shows 80 mi on the GOM when full in the summer. You're probably looking at a 9 or 10 bar car with a reset. Tell the dealer as much and demand to be allowed to do a full range test (charge to 100%, then drive to LBW or even VLBW). At 62 mph, you can check Tony Williams' Arizona test results and compare.
 
Reddy said:
You're probably looking at a 9 or 10 bar car with a reset. Tell the dealer as much and demand to be allowed to do a full range test (charge to 100%, then drive to LBW or even VLBW). At 62 mph, you can check Tony Williams' Arizona test results and compare.
Why do you say the former? (Yes, it is possible that it's the victim of a BMS reset.)

OP, where did the car reside before per Carfax and/or Autocheck? What's the build month on the driver's side sticker? How many miles on it? With this info, we can better ascertain whether the # of visible capacity bars and Leaf Spy readings are to be believed or not.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/seattle-nissan-leaf-owners/a-guide-for-buying-a-used-leaf/1100737373291032/ may help. To elaborate on what Leftie said, http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/File:Scott_3_bars_s.jpg is an example of a 3 bar loser.

My 5/2013 built used '13 Leaf had all 12 bars when I bought in July 2015 and still does today, but it's getting real close to losing 1 at 48.5K miles. SOH is now around 85 or 86%. Hx is typically around 83.xx to 85.xx%.

Unfortunately, my work and home climate are on the warmer side of the SF Bay Area, but not blazing hot like Walnut Creek, Livermore and Concord.
 
LeftieBiker said:
The GOM uses the last few minutes of driving to estimate range, and is so generally useless. You need to look at the small capacity bars right next to the charge bars. If there really are 12 of those, then you should have at least that 60 miles of range, barring tampering. 73 miles is for a new 24kwh Leaf in the real world.


Yep. I drove up a local mountain and at the summit the GOM decided I had 13 miles of range left. By the time I got back down to the bottom it figured I had 68 miles remaining. If your car can display the battery charge in percent (not sure if 2013 did this?) that's the display to watch, imho. Experience will tell you how far you can go on a percent. LeafSpy display of "Gids" is even more granular of course, but I find the straight-up percentage is good enough for almost all of my driving.
 
Thanks so much everyone. Its taking every ounce of willpower not to jump on this car.

The manufacturing date was 4/15/13. It spent two years on lease in Michigan. The last two years were spent in southern NJ/PA area. Not taxing climates for the batteries, right?

Please, please continue to educate me and all 2cents appreciated . This would be my first leaf and I am anxious to be a happy, not regretful member of this community!
 
It's unlikely that your capacity reading is wrong, given the manufacture date and previous home. Is this an SV or an S? If an SV or SL, press the blue button on the steering wheel on a full charge and read the lower range estimate figure given on the Nav screen. This estimate is usually accurate, although maybe not right when you start driving. Check it again after a few miles.
 
You need to test drive the car for an extended period and pay close attention to the % vs. the GOM unless you can get the Leaf Spy data. What are they asking for it, how many miles and what model? Charge package, rear view camera, etc?
You obviously understand that falling for a particular car is not the way to shop for a good deal.
I don't share the opinion of the majority here and elsewhere; I find the GOM to be pretty accurate, considering the data it is working with. Mine goes up and down about 5 or 10 miles depending on how I'm driving or if I've been going up a lot of hills, but generally shows about 75 to 80 miles at full charge with one capacity bar gone.
 
I don't share the opinion of the majority here and elsewhere; I find the GOM to be pretty accurate, considering the data it is working with. Mine goes up and down about 5 or 10 miles depending on how I'm driving or if I've been going up a lot of hills, but generally shows about 75 to 80 miles at full charge with one capacity bar gone.

And can you drive it that far, or almost that far, at normal speeds...?
 
If I continue to drive like I have in the previous cycle and I'm willing to go to turtle mode, then yes, I think I can. Do I think it is overly optimistic? You bet.
I just keep an eye on what it says on my daily commute, and it seems to be fairly accurate. Since I sail to work at 3 AM mostly downhill, I often show up using only about 3 miles of the 8 I drive, but I make up for it on the way home by using 13 to go 8 in heavy traffic in the afternoon. I generally go down to just under 40% and about 28 miles showing after 3 days having traveled about 50 miles. That has also been in almost ideal weather during the summer. I haven't faced a winter in it yet.
 
For most of use (and you as well, given that 80 mile estimate) the GOM is usually wrong at the start of a trip, and gradually becomes more and more accurate until it finally converges with reality - right near the end. This isn't very useful.
 
sciencegirl said:
Thoughts?
Don't do anything until you can LeafSpy the car.
If the LeafSpy results look REALLY good then be skeptical of a reset and go for a long test drive before you believe them.
 
Don't do anything until you can LeafSpy the car.
If the LeafSpy results look REALLY good then be skeptical of a reset and go for a long test drive before you believe them.

This is generally good advice, but with a later 2013 build date and a cool climate for the first 3 years, it would be remarkable for the car to have lost a bar. Most likely the SOH is between 89 and 95. The resets have mainly been done on lease returns from hot areas.
 
sciencegirl said:
I'm looking at a 2013 Leaf that has me puzzled..... It's showing 12 bars but only 63miles of range. On the charger it showed that it was 91% charged. Dealer said it will go to 73 on a full charge (smirk and doubtful side eye).

I LOVE this particular car. know, I know....I need to see what kind of data I get using Leafspy, but, is this a deal breaker?

Thoughts?

first off.... what does 12 bars mean

Well, a full charge on the pack is only 97%. The 12th "capacity" bar (the short ones on the right side of the GOM display) is 15% while the others are 6¼% each. The "SOC" bars are the long ones on the left side of the GOM display. How much they represent is anyone's guess due to a very large buffer for the parameter that turns the bars on and off but 8-10% is a good rule of thumb. FYI; Just like analog meters like gas gauges, the first and the last bar seems to hold a bit more umph so maybe consider the 12th SOC bar to be 11%??

2nd off; The salesman could be referencing the EPA standard for the LEAF when he mentioned the 73 miles (don't ask me how this number came about because I have not heard a explanation yet that made any sense. If you are interested in reading comedy, check out the 80% charge setting and how it relates to the EPA's guidelines...)

3rd off; The car is sitting in a dealership which means it has spent a lot of its recent life moving from one part of the lot to the other. If you are in a warm climate, I would venture to say that it did it with A/C blasting away. A/C does not use much power but it will still depress your GOM numbers.

4th off; referencing the above, the GOM gives you an estimate of range based on the assumption that your recent history of driving patterns will continue until you hit turtle (power limited mode due to very low SOC which is "state of charge") IOW, it is not representative of the true range of the car at all. There are clues that can help you like the "miles/kwh meter" that can be viewed in the center of the driver's screen. You may or may not be able to see it since the info can be toggled with several other things and it is only effective if it was reset when the car was charged.

So in conclusion; for help with the GOM, I would suggest

**LEAF Spy which gives you a much better picture of the condition of the battery pack

and

**Duct tape. Simply apply a piece to the dash to obscure the GOM. this is the best course of action I can recommend.
 
This is a loaded SL for 10k. Its a CPO (which I get the feeling doesn't mean much) from a Nissan dealer. Something that may support some of what's been said about the GOM reading beign based on the recent drives it that this dealership has a "test drive track". It's a 1/4-1/2ish loop.

I'm still tempted but I really need to be able to go 70-80 miles on a charge.

Ugh. I am still very much in the fence.
 
SageBrush said:
sciencegirl said:
I'm still tempted but I really need to be able to go 70-80 miles on a charge.
Unlikely in inclement weather

Relate your use of LeafSpy (a necessity for pre-purchase & free) when you bought your Leaf,
i.e. determine the Ahrs at 100% SOC. It's the most useful Leaf battery parameter, actually
for any battery as a measure of its useful capacity.

Note: Using the Ahrs reading at any SOC allows one to easily calculate Ahrs at 100% SOC.
A new Leaf will have approximately, with the new energy capacity rating (24/30/40 kWhrs)
divided by approximately 400 volts, that Ahrs value, e.g. 24kWhrs - 60 Ahrs.
 
SageBrush said:
sciencegirl said:
I'm still tempted but I really need to be able to go 70-80 miles on a charge.
Unlikely in inclement weather
I forgot to mention, you probably have to figure on 5-10% loss of range every year, spanning the range of cool to warm climates.

Any chance you are in one of the CARB states ? The Bolt has fantastic lease offers, mostly in CA and MA. Check out
ev-vin.blogspot.com
 
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