Phatcat73
Posts: 433
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:44 pm
Leaf Number: 401511
Location: Buffalo Grove, Il

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:39 pm

Your wife will run into situations where the charging infrastructure will be out of order. As much as we would love for it to work for you, for a 100 mile commute a Prius or other hybrid may be the best option at the moment. Maybe in a few years you can get a cheap Bolt.
2016 SV; purchased 20-Jan-17, <5k, 98% SOH; 01-Apr-17
2013 SV; purchased 6-March-13 44k, 81% SOH; 3-Apr-17
2015 S; purchased 29-July-14, moved to AZ Nov-2014, 19k, 83% SOH; 30-Mar-17
(LD storage) 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid 4x2), 101k

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7380
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:07 pm

A used Prius PHEV would get 70+ MPG on that kind of commute.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Evoforce
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:44 am

A Chevy BOLT would work great if you could swing the payment or 2018 Leaf. However, in the end if you can't swing that, I hate to see you go to a plugin hybrid but... maybe you have no choice. A Tesla Model 3 would be way too long of a wait probably for you.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

powersurge
Posts: 767
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:13 am

Mr. Neomaxcom,

Your posts sound like you and your wife are adventurous and self-sufficient people. However you seem hell-bend on getting a Leaf, and expecting your wife to make a daily commute which involves multiple charging stops and a hours of extra commute time (while you wait for the car to charge).

1) Although you may be used to getting a "beater car", you cannot expect that a "beater Leaf" will work on long distance driving. Heck, I cant imagine driving 100 miles a day commute even with my comfy Cadillac. You typically buy a car that will make your travel easier and quicker. However, your plan (even overlooking other's suggestion of getting a Volt) is not realistic... And may I say... Foolhardy.

2) Your plan for charging is erroneous. You cannot start your trip at 100%, drive 15 miles, and then quick charge back up to 100% You will kill the battery.

3) You talk about different options on the car, when the basic issue is that you need a car for long distance driving. Different models, options, and getting "free" batteries means nothing if the car is not made for the use intended. It is like wanting to bicycle 20 miles per day as a commute... You MAY be able to do it, but you cannot expect to make the sacrifice daily. You are trying to stuff 20 lbs. of tomatoes into a 10 pound bag...

neomaxcom
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:03 pm
Delivery Date: 02 Nov 2017

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:16 pm

powersurge wrote:Mr. Neomaxcom,

Your posts sound like you and your wife are adventurous and self-sufficient people. However you seem hell-bend on getting a Leaf, and expecting your wife to make a daily commute which involves multiple charging stops and a hours of extra commute time (while you wait for the car to charge).

1) Although you may be used to getting a "beater car", you cannot expect that a "beater Leaf" will work on long distance driving. Heck, I cant imagine driving 100 miles a day commute even with my comfy Cadillac. You typically buy a car that will make your travel easier and quicker. However, your plan (even overlooking other's suggestion of getting a Volt) is not realistic... And may I say... Foolhardy.

2) Your plan for charging is erroneous. You cannot start your trip at 100%, drive 15 miles, and then quick charge back up to 100% You will kill the battery.

3) You talk about different options on the car, when the basic issue is that you need a car for long distance driving. Different models, options, and getting "free" batteries means nothing if the car is not made for the use intended. It is like wanting to bicycle 20 miles per day as a commute... You MAY be able to do it, but you cannot expect to make the sacrifice daily. You are trying to stuff 20 lbs. of tomatoes into a 10 pound bag...


Actually, the discussion here is quite valuable and its purpose, as stated in the topic headline ...was to test my logic. Hence, I appreciate the devil's advocacy as the whole point was intended to evoke any protests of foolhardiness or confirmation bias on my part.

What I gather is that the Leaf would more than accomplish the current 19-mi one-way commute primarily on back roads where the top speed limit ranges between 35 and 50mph maximum. Even an older leaf with a diminished capacity battery would likely do commute with range to spare.

BUT ... and this was always the case ... a 50 mile one-way commute (100 mile round trip) - which frankly is a commute I would not even consider for myself EVER - would be beyond the limits of the a 2011-2017 leaf even with a new battery (point 2 above.) That commute would require at least a higher range EV like the new 2018 150 mile Leaf or the 238-mile Bolt - but as neither are available as a highly depreciated used car; a plug-in or conventional hybrid seems the only option.

The good news on that is that a typical chevy volt's range would just about cover the 38 mile current commute with all electric travel making this almost as good a solution for the short term as well filling the bill infinitely better if she changes jobs.

Thank you to all those who contributed their thoughts to this. For the record, I wouldn't have even asked if I were devoid of doubts.

- neomaxcom

Reddy
Posts: 1443
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:09 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 006828
Location: Pasco, WA

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:20 pm

neomaxcom wrote:... What I gather is that the Leaf would more than accomplish the current 19-mi one-way commute primarily on back roads where the top speed limit ranges between 35 and 50mph maximum. Even an older leaf with a diminished capacity battery would likely do commute with range to spare.

BUT ... and this was always the case ... a 50 mile one-way commute (100 mile round trip) - which frankly is a commute I would not even consider for myself EVER - would be beyond the limits of the a 2011-2017 leaf even with a new battery (point 2 above.) That commute would require at least a higher range EV like the new 2018 150 mile Leaf or the 238-mile Bolt - but as neither are available as a highly depreciated used car; a plug-in or conventional hybrid seems the only option....
I think that's a fair summary. For comparison, I have a 9-bar 2011 Leaf that is perfectly acceptable for 40-50 mi under mixed 35-65 mph speeds. My limits are tested when temps are below 10 F (not a problem in Atlanta). If you are only considering the 40 mi RT commute, I'd definitely go with the 2013 SL, drive the $hit out of it and hope for a new battery under warranty by April. Oh, that "style" of driving would be FULL acceleration at every stop light, full regen at every stop, lots of stop & go, 75 mph on the freeway, charging to 100% every chance you get, DCQC twice a day (or more if possible), lots of weekend trips to the DCQC, etc. Heck, I still recommend that you get the 2013 SL because you cannot accurately predict what the future will be. Your commute may stay at 40 mi RT or may not. The 100 mi RT commute might include a 240 V Level 2 charging at work. Also, there's talk of eliminating the $7500 tax credit on new EVs, which will make new EVs more expensive and may generate a higher demand on used EVs (hence possibly higher prices.... or not). Who knows what will happen? If the new job and commute is a given, then all bets are off, and you need to plan on something other than a used Leaf.
Reddy
2011 SL; 9 bar, 46.44 AHr; 40,067 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

neomaxcom
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:03 pm
Delivery Date: 02 Nov 2017

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:03 pm

Neomaxcom here with an update.

I found a nice Chevy Volt Premium with just over 50000 mi that avoids all the aspects of range anxiety and will be able to provide a pure electric commute at the current job if we can find a place to charge there and, with the addition of a 220v level 2 charger at home, very little use of the gas power range extender. The car is nice and fits the bill and also allowed me to do business with an advertiser on my site. As far as the deal, I got it for about $500 under the Edmund's private party price for the car which had been detailed to like new condition at the new car dealer. They had the car priced at $400 over the dealer price Edmund's established so it was a good deal.

That said my wife notes my jealousy at her having the 'tech' green car and while she's happy with it and appreciates its 'green-ness' (she is the driver of the household recyclable efforts), she's just not as interested in cars in general and would have been happy with a Corolla that gets 35mpg. That said she's being quite generous in letting me use the car on her days off.

Still, I currently have a small fleet of ICE vehicles that I acquired on the personal judgement that three or four 'cheap cars' are, in aggregate less expensive and more reliable than one new more expensive one. Given that the fleet will assuage any range anxiety - assuming they can make the trip without breaking down :) - I figure that even the range on a deprecated Leaf with seven bars might serve my local needs of running to the store and maybe to town with a typical round trip of most of my travels being under 30-35 miles.

How much range does a Leaf with a seven or eight bar battery have? I would think they would reliably be able to travel at least 50 miles between charges.

The second question is what is a 9 bar or even 8 or 7 bar out of warranty Leaf worth? What I've seen the body and interiors are probably just fine as well as the running gear and the car might come across as a real clean used car at average or even clean condition. But with the $5500-6000 cost of a replacement battery that has to be factored into the cost, as at 9 bars it is imminent and at 8 or 7 or even 6 bars, the car is in need of a replacement because its utility is becoming increasingly restricted. I mean if an ICE car needed a new engine and transmission, you could purchase it for a song even if the rest of the car was neat as a pin.

How common are these restricted utility leaf's? I think they are more common than most folks realize.

I've seen a lot of 10-11 bar cars and a couple of nine-bar cars like the 2013 SL I mentioned earlier. I recently spied on Craigslist in Atlanta, a 7-bar leaf 2012 SV that the guy was asking $5800 for. I asked for the VIN as I wanted to call nissan to see if it was still under warranty and the guy was just not aware. He did not reply and the listing is now gone. Notably, none of those seeking to sell these cars seem to be very forthcoming in regard to the condition of the battery in their particular leaf's. Often, the only mention is the photo of the dash display and I've seen one 'dealer' ad in which the only dash display had the entire display photoshopped to black, I assume to disguise the facts.

I saw another one with what appeared to be 8 bars on a 'dealership' lot ... it was a chain of dealerships, BTW and while this particular dealer wasn't a Nissan store, there are affiliated stores. Anyway, this particular dealer's used car lot offers somewhat attractive 'no-haggle' pricing. I emailed them a lengthy analysis of their car suggesting that with eight bars it must be out of warranty and the battery would need replacing and wondering if they would come off the 'edmunds private seller' level pricing. They blew me off responding they offer no-haggle pricing.

I've also looked at places like copart.com auctions which offer bent Leafs at auction on an as-is basis. Without knowing how the leaf is put together, I'm reluctant to look seriously at these cars, many of which are noted to run and drive but seem to have damage at the rear or front. Of course copart never shows the battery health bars. For instance, what is the likelihood of battery damage on a leaf that has been re-ended or even flooded but showing power up? I get from the few stories I've read about battery replacement that some proprietary programming has to be done at a Nissan dealership on a replacement battery in a best case scenario. Has anyone salvaged a battery, say from a wrecked 2015 for replacement in a 2012?

Anyway, I'm kinda still in the market for a leaf but as my wife's situation is now solved, I can wait and watch and choose the best deal.

neomaxcom

silverone
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2016 4:29 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Jan 2017
Location: Eastern OH

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:36 pm

neomaxcom wrote:Neomaxcom here with an update.

I found a nice Chevy Volt Premium with just over 50000 mi that avoids all the aspects of range anxiety and will be able to provide a pure electric commute at the current job if we can find a place to charge there and, with the addition of a 220v level 2 charger at home, very little use of the gas power range extender. The car is nice and fits the bill and also allowed me to do business with an advertiser on my site. As far as the deal, I got it for about $500 under the Edmund's private party price for the car which had been detailed to like new condition at the new car dealer. They had the car priced at $400 over the dealer price Edmund's established so it was a good deal.

That said my wife notes my jealousy at her having the 'tech' green car and while she's happy with it and appreciates its 'green-ness' (she is the driver of the household recyclable efforts), she's just not as interested in cars in general and would have been happy with a Corolla that gets 35mpg. That said she's being quite generous in letting me use the car on her days off.

Still, I currently have a small fleet of ICE vehicles that I acquired on the personal judgement that three or four 'cheap cars' are, in aggregate less expensive and more reliable than one new more expensive one. Given that the fleet will assuage any range anxiety - assuming they can make the trip without breaking down :) - I figure that even the range on a deprecated Leaf with seven bars might serve my local needs of running to the store and maybe to town with a typical round trip of most of my travels being under 30-35 miles.

How much range does a Leaf with a seven or eight bar battery have? I would think they would reliably be able to travel at least 50 miles between charges.

The second question is what is a 9 bar or even 8 or 7 bar out of warranty Leaf worth? What I've seen the body and interiors are probably just fine as well as the running gear and the car might come across as a real clean used car at average or even clean condition. But with the $5500-6000 cost of a replacement battery that has to be factored into the cost, as at 9 bars it is imminent and at 8 or 7 or even 6 bars, the car is in need of a replacement because its utility is becoming increasingly restricted. I mean if an ICE car needed a new engine and transmission, you could purchase it for a song even if the rest of the car was neat as a pin.

How common are these restricted utility leaf's? I think they are more common than most folks realize.

I've seen a lot of 10-11 bar cars and a couple of nine-bar cars like the 2013 SL I mentioned earlier. I recently spied on Craigslist in Atlanta, a 7-bar leaf 2012 SV that the guy was asking $5800 for. I asked for the VIN as I wanted to call nissan to see if it was still under warranty and the guy was just not aware. He did not reply and the listing is now gone. Notably, none of those seeking to sell these cars seem to be very forthcoming in regard to the condition of the battery in their particular leaf's. Often, the only mention is the photo of the dash display and I've seen one 'dealer' ad in which the only dash display had the entire display photoshopped to black, I assume to disguise the facts.

I saw another one with what appeared to be 8 bars on a 'dealership' lot ... it was a chain of dealerships, BTW and while this particular dealer wasn't a Nissan store, there are affiliated stores. Anyway, this particular dealer's used car lot offers somewhat attractive 'no-haggle' pricing. I emailed them a lengthy analysis of their car suggesting that with eight bars it must be out of warranty and the battery would need replacing and wondering if they would come off the 'edmunds private seller' level pricing. They blew me off responding they offer no-haggle pricing.

I've also looked at places like copart.com auctions which offer bent Leafs at auction on an as-is basis. Without knowing how the leaf is put together, I'm reluctant to look seriously at these cars, many of which are noted to run and drive but seem to have damage at the rear or front. Of course copart never shows the battery health bars. For instance, what is the likelihood of battery damage on a leaf that has been re-ended or even flooded but showing power up? I get from the few stories I've read about battery replacement that some proprietary programming has to be done at a Nissan dealership on a replacement battery in a best case scenario. Has anyone salvaged a battery, say from a wrecked 2015 for replacement in a 2012?

Anyway, I'm kinda still in the market for a leaf but as my wife's situation is now solved, I can wait and watch and choose the best deal.

neomaxcom


Congrats on the wife's Volt. It's a very nice car and I'm sure she'll be pleased with it - I have a 2014 Volt as well. If I had sprung for a Premium loaded Volt, my situation would be different and I'd be driving that daily instead of my Leaf. I've found the creature comforts of heated wheel and seats are too nice to pass up!

There is a battery capacity post that someone will probably link to soon. Your range in winter in an 8 bar pre 2013 will be around 40 as temperatures drop without a heat pump. As for used values, I've found it helpful to browse CA Craigslist postings to find pricing closer to true for cars with degraded batteries. There seems to be a price "floor" around $5000 regardless of battery condition, or there was when subsidized battery replacement for 2011-2012 was a thing.
2013 SL with Premium package - build date 5/13. 12 bar car with 47,000 miles and counting... Trying to nurse 12 bars to 60,000 miles and beyond if possible!

2014 Volt - 46,000+ miles

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:41 pm

Congratulations on getting the Volt. I think that is a good choice since your wife's commute situation could change. To answer your question about range with battery degradation: I made my 52-mile round trip (26 each way) with ice cold A/C when my 2011 was down to 8 capacity bars before Nissan replaced the battery, but there was almost no charge left when I got home each day. I would not have been able to use heat and make my commute in the winter.

About salvage LEAFs: There are some threads about replacing traction batteries so I won't go into detail. I would stay away from one that had been flooded because the battery case has pressure/vacuum relief vents so water could get in if it was submerged for extended time. I drove my 2011 out of the intersection after the crash and it was technically repairable, but the other driver's insurance company declared it a total loss because they thought it would cost them less than repairing it. I contemplated buying it back and converting it to a small pickup, but the insurance company storage yard trashed the interior and damaged the front and underside by handling it with a large fork lift. It would still power up normally when I looked at it on the storage lot, but I could not be certain that there was not hidden damage from being handled by forklift. The front of the car was damaged by the forks and the interior was covered with grease and dirt so I gave up the idea of buying it back.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

specialgreen
Posts: 41
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:21 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Mar 2017
Location: Minnesota

Re: Check my logic on buying ...

Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:20 pm

I think the Volt is the right answer. But I was going to comment that I charge at 12A 240v, and I add about 10 miles’ range per hour of charge, up to 80% SOC. If someone works an 8.5-hour shift, then I would guess they could add half of that trickle-charging (5 miles’ X 8.5 hours = 42 miles), if they weren’t charging over 80% SOC. Obviously, no going out for lunch, or stopping even once on the way for shopping (which means no fun, and a wasted trip later).

So yeah, the Volt is a better answer.

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