cwerdna
Posts: 7826
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Fri May 18, 2018 12:19 am

Evoforce wrote:Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best.

Disagree. The pre-4/2013 packs were terrible.

When the Leaf had only been out about 21 months, we'd already seen 4 bar losers (e.g. Blue494 at https://web.archive.org/web/20160113132 ... p?p=228326).

I don't recall any 4 bar losers on the lizard packs at viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532 yet. We first learned of "lizard" packs in late June 2014 being in model year 2015 Leafs: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=374490.

Even the better 4/2013+ packs (Leftie calls them "wolf" pack) are no match for Phoenix heat: viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995.

GerryAZ has posted numerous comparisons of the lizard pack vs. '11 pack. Search for posts by him. A few quick examples I found:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25161&p=516094&hilit=bars+2011#p516094
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24209&p=499072&hilit=2011+by+bars#p499072
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23929&p=493935&hilit=2011+by+bars#p493935

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 8777
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Fri May 18, 2018 3:10 am

I thought Tucson might be a little better on the battery than Phoenix temp wise especially at night since we cool off faster here due to the higher elevation.

I guess it takes the battery a lot of time to change its temp. I thought by now, midnight, in the 70s, it would go down on bars but it's still at 6. Aww well.


The cool nights will be a definite plus. The pack temp will seem unchanging until the wee hours (in part because of the huge variance in temps within "bars"), but then will drop quite a bit by the time the day gets hot again. Try to charge after 3:00am if possible.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GaryHere
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Fri May 18, 2018 5:59 am

cwerdna wrote:
GaryHere wrote:I guess it takes the battery a lot of time to change its temp. I thought by now, midnight, in the 70s, it would go down on bars but it's still at 6. Aww well.

It does. The battery has a lot of thermal mass and takes awhile to adapt to ambient temps.

The stupid battery temp display has huge overlapping ranges along w/some black box algorithm: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Batt ... ture_Gauge.

The only way to really see pack temps is to get something like Leaf Spy (been a user of the Pro version on Android since July 2015). I'm pretty sure that my when my pack temp rises above 59 F, that's when it transitions from 4 bars to 5 bars.


I figured that for that display (and others), there is another way of seeing now finer detail about things.

Good to know.


cwerdna wrote:
Evoforce wrote:Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it I'm comparison, at best.

Disagree. The pre-4/2013 packs were terrible.

When the Leaf had only been out about 21 months, we'd already seen 4 bar losers (e.g. Blue494 at https://web.archive.org/web/20160113132 ... p?p=228326).

I don't recall any 4 bar losers on the lizard packs at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532 yet. We first learned of "lizard" packs in late June 2014 being in model year 2015 Leafs: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 8&p=374490.

Even the better 4/2013+ packs (Leftie calls them "wolf" pack) are no match for Phoenix heat: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 95#p473995.

GerryAZ has posted numerous comparisons of the lizard pack vs. '11 pack. Search for posts by him. A few quick examples I found:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 11#p516094
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... rs#p499072
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... rs#p493935


Good links there for me to check out today, thank you much.

LeftieBiker wrote:
The cool nights will be a definite plus. The pack temp will seem unchanging until the wee hours (in part because of the huge variance in temps within "bars"), but then will drop quite a bit by the time the day gets hot again. Try to charge after 3:00am if possible.


Yes a definite plus for Tucson for our temps being a bit lower after sunset and early am because of elevation.

I.e it's 0600 now and Tucson is 59° while Phoenix is already 71.

One other plus for this cars' battery is that it's history shows the location of all the 19,000 miles/use as being in the Bay Area.

^^ Thanx so much for all the replies. It's a tremendous help !

lorenfb
Posts: 1755
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Fri May 18, 2018 9:06 am

Evoforce wrote:
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.


Yes, based on what I've found, i.e. mostly anecdotal, there's little to no statistical data to corroborate the conclusion that the 2015 has
significantly less heat degradation than earlier Leafs, especially the late 2013 (Wolf). Added some info here; viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20178&start=20#p527346

Another "piece" of data from here; http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... y_Loss#181
Loss of one battery capacity bar (15%)

Sept 17, 2016
lorax
Gilbert, AZ
34,450 miles
22 months
8/14
2015 model year
311006

Again, just anecdotal.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 65K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F, min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

GaryHere
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Fri May 18, 2018 10:21 am

lorenfb wrote:
Evoforce wrote:
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.


Yes, based on what I've found, i.e. mostly anecdotal, there's little to no statistical data to corroborate the conclusion that the 2015 has
significantly less heat degradation than earlier Leafs, especially the late 2013 (Wolf). Added some info here; http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 20#p527346

Another "piece" of data from here; http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... y_Loss#181
Loss of one battery capacity bar (15%)

Sept 17, 2016
lorax
Gilbert, AZ
34,450 miles
22 months
8/14
2015 model year
311006

Again, just anecdotal.


Not good, thanks for sharing.

Personally I think all these batteries are vulnerable regardless of what Nissan claims to have changed chemistry wise.

This is based on zero thermal cooling on the Leaf unlike the Volt, Fiat 500e has.

I don't think air cooling cuts it for protection with heat.

But I don't care, I'm gonna put that outta my head cause I've had a love affair with the Leaf way back to 2012 so as others stated: just enjoy the car !

I have no regrets purchasing this.

I couldn't even sleep well last night as I was excited to hop in it and go.

Thanks all.

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1695
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Sat May 19, 2018 2:05 pm

At 61,361 miles as of this morning, the original battery in my 2015 continues to do MUCH better than my 2011 (original and replacement batteries from Japan) under similar driving conditions. The "Gids" at full charge are still higher than my 2011 (Silver 679) had the morning of the Phoenix Range Test in September 2012 with only 14,500 miles and 15 months of use. I do notice that L1 or lower current L2 charging and/or gentle driving at lower speeds tend to temporarily reduce the AHr, SOH, and Hx numbers reported by LEAF Spy Pro. The numbers return to normal with 6 kW charging and my normal daily commute of mostly freeway driving. DCQC charging also improves those numbers. Note, I almost always charge to 100% and usually discharge the battery rather deeply between charges.

My experience with the 2015 SL is that slow charging seems to be more detrimental under my driving/charging conditions so I recommend that you drive the way you want to fit in with other traffic and charge at the highest L2 rate available for your normal daily charging. Try to have SOC (state of charge) below 75% whenever the car will be parked for extended time (such as at the airport). Otherwise, just charge it and drive it!
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

GaryHere
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Sat May 19, 2018 3:45 pm

GerryAZ wrote:At 61,361 miles as of this morning, the original battery in my 2015 continues to do MUCH better than my 2011 (original and replacement batteries from Japan) under similar driving conditions. The "Gids" at full charge are still higher than my 2011 (Silver 679) had the morning of the Phoenix Range Test in September 2012 with only 14,500 miles and 15 months of use. I do notice that L1 or lower current L2 charging and/or gentle driving at lower speeds tend to temporarily reduce the AHr, SOH, and Hx numbers reported by LEAF Spy Pro. The numbers return to normal with 6 kW charging and my normal daily commute of mostly freeway driving. DCQC charging also improves those numbers. Note, I almost always charge to 100% and usually discharge the battery rather deeply between charges.

My experience with the 2015 SL is that slow charging seems to be more detrimental under my driving/charging conditions so I recommend that you drive the way you want to fit in with other traffic and charge at the highest L2 rate available for your normal daily charging. Try to have SOC (state of charge) below 75% whenever the car will be parked for extended time (such as at the airport). Otherwise, just charge it and drive it!



Good to hear from you. Another AZ guy :D

Good info there for sure, thanks much. Good to hear + feedback on DCQC; seems all I read is its not good to do that much.

So storage at a high SOC seems to be a thing not to do. I think I remember that when I had a Volt as well.

I am very cautious here with where I park my car. I just went to my gym and parked way far away under a nice shady tree. I liked the walk as it warms me up for my gym.

And just now I scored a nice total shade spot in my apt. complex here and its only 330p here in Tucson.

Thanks much and have a nice weekend Gerry.


Gary

GaryHere
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Mon May 21, 2018 1:20 pm

Evoforce wrote:
Six temp bars will not be typical for him... Unless he is in the higher elevations. 7-8 plus will be typical during the day and especially as summer sets in.


I'm still at 6 bars after a lot of driving/charging this weekend and it's been 100 daily.

Of course we are not at July temps yet here in Tucson so the 6 bars remaining thru that period is a guess for now. :D

GaryHere
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Fri May 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Reached 7 bars today on battery temp. but oddly not till hours after a one hr L2 charge to only 70%

I dare to try connecting to a CHAdeMO

:roll:

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 1695
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

Mon May 28, 2018 12:32 pm

GaryHere wrote:Reached 7 bars today on battery temp. but oddly not till hours after a one hr L2 charge to only 70%

I dare to try connecting to a CHAdeMO

:roll:


Does this mean that the lizard battery isnt so lizardy after all :evil:


7 bars is nothing--I had 9 bars Friday evening after a quick charge from 5% to 92% SOC in 32 minutes. I then drove at governed speed for a little ways at an undisclosed location. Traction motor draw was about 40 kW with high rolling resistance sport performance tires and no wind on a level surface at governed speed. The battery temperature was down to 8 bars by the time I returned home late in the evening; 7 bars the next morning after a full charge at L2 when I left for work at 4:45 AM; and 6 bars after being parked under covered parking all day.

I stopped obsessing over battery temperature a long time ago because I bought the first LEAF (and then the replacement) to drive for daily transportation around town. I record battery temperatures when I record charging data, but have never chosen to leave the car parked just because the battery was hot.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

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