GaryHere
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: This is normal?

Thu May 31, 2018 8:28 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GaryHere wrote:Im am really curious to try the DCQC if I could find one close just to experience that speed of charging.

If you don't like the temperature jump from L2 charging, DCFC is going to be quite a bit less appealing.
If you are willing to make do with a number, then about 3 kWh every 4-5 minutes.

I gather you have been charging at Blink stations. Do they report kWh delivered from the meter ? If yes, please repeat the test during a recharge. It will give us some data regarding the accuracy of the miles/kWh meter.

By the way, I may not have answered your earlier question in a helpful way. '12 bars' of battery capacity correspond to 85 - 100% new battery capacity, and 100% is ~ 22 kWh. Since your car reports 12 bars, you expect the test to return a result between 18.7 - 22 kWh. That is probably good enough data for you, but once you are confident that the car battery metrics have not been meddled with you can always get from LeafSpy [the best data we know of].


Ahh ok now I understand the numbers. I think. Lol.

The battery is 24kWh but only 18.7-22 is available when the battery is in good shape?

I remember reading 21 somewhere.

Yes I'd imagine QC is gonna heat up that battery more than L2. Seems I'm staying at 7 bars even without charging. It's at that now after I went to the store.

I drove like an 85 yo grandma there, lol, in B mode/eco, it's only 4 miles r/t and with regen, I left at 59% SOC and came home that way. I like that.

Yes been charging at Blink, I think they show you that kWh delivered. I've been calling them and complaining why it doesn't show on their app after charging is completed but in AZ it's a pay by the time state where as in CA etc, they have a set rate based on kW used.

I'll look next time on their screen, that it if I can see it. They are soooo washed out and I'm on my third Blink card now cause none work but the app works to start the charge.

Thanx again, as always, for your speedy, informative replies :D

SageBrush
Posts: 2795
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: This is normal?

Thu May 31, 2018 9:21 pm

GaryHere wrote:The battery is 24kWh but only 18.7-22 is available when the battery is in good shape?

18.7 - 22.0 kWh capacity in a LEAF with a '24 kwh' battery that displays 12 capacity bars and is not tampered with. The range reflects the fact that the 12th bar drops out when capacity drops below 85% of new. Until that 12th bar drops, you do not know if your car battery sits at 85%, 86%, 87% .... up to 100% of a new battery capacity.

LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GaryHere
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: This is normal?

Thu May 31, 2018 9:58 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GaryHere wrote:The battery is 24kWh but only 18.7-22 is available when the battery is in good shape?

18.7 - 22.0 kWh capacity in a LEAF with a '24 kwh' battery that displays 12 capacity bars and is not tampered with. The range reflects the fact that the 12th bar drops out when capacity drops below 85% of new. Until that 12th bar drops, you do not know if your car battery sits at 85%, 86%, 87% .... up to 100% of a new battery capacity.

LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.


Ahh yea I forget about that the 1st bar is 15% loss, so thats kinda a big one to lose (at first)

I was looking at Leaf cars for sale and its ironic that the used car dealers that take and publish on their ads, close up shots showing the capacity bars, and if they are missing some and not 12 bars, they have zero clue that they are giving customers info that likely they dont want them to know. (Normally)

Or put this way, when was the last time those car dealers showed derogatory things about the cars they want to sell?

I find it all amusing. Even Carmax, Carvana have cars for sale lacking bars but none of the prices are adjusted as such.

They are clueless to these bars on the Leaf but a customer like me, who knows this, knows to avoid these cars with less bars.

But of course we know theres also resets and thats where your test works well! :)

SageBrush
Posts: 2795
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: This is normal?

Thu May 31, 2018 10:52 pm

GaryHere wrote:I find it all amusing. Even Carmax, Carvana have cars for sale lacking bars but none of the prices are adjusted as such.

I noticed the same, and mentioned it in another thread: LEAF prices are mostly set by odometer and model year.
The smart consumer buys a late 2013 or 2014 LEAF with relatively high mileage and (real) 12 bar battery capacity. So long as ~ 19 kWh is enough range and it is pampered some, the car will probably* be a great value.

* In cool and moderate climates. Hot climates are not a good bet. Sorry, Gary
Last edited by SageBrush on Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GaryHere
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue May 15, 2018 5:41 pm

Re: This is normal?

Thu May 31, 2018 11:26 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GaryHere wrote:I find it all amusing. Even Carmax, Carvana have cars for sale lacking bars but none of the prices are adjusted as such.

I noticed the same, and mentioned it in another thread: LEAF prices are mostly set by odometer and model year.
The smart consumer buys a late 2013 or 2014 LEAF with relatively high mileage and (real) 12 bar battery capacity. So long as ~ 19 kWh is enough range and it is pampered some, the car will probably* be a great value.

In cool and moderate climates. Hot climates are not a good bet. Sorry, Gary


Words of truth and wisdom.

At worst case the car loses a bar or two and I trade it in.

For once trading it in may work to a consumers advantage: those dealers have no clue nor care about battery capacity, just as you say, the year and mileage.

I saw a 2011 today on CList with only 5 bars, never saw one that low and was priced to sell by it's mileage (50k) and age.

I really hope gullible people aren't buying these cars based on how lovely and detailed and loaded some are!

I think the Leaf is the only car that shows battery capacity right there permanently on the dash.

I could be wrong but I'll rephrase that...I've never seen battery capacity displayed on any car I've owned be it a Volt, Prius, C Max, Prius C, Fait 500e and my Honda Civic Hybrid.

WetEV
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: This is normal?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:41 am

SageBrush wrote:LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.


BMS's capacity guess isn't accurate to 2kWh, so displaying to 0.1 kWh is confusing.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
Posts: 2795
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: This is normal?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:35 am

WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.


BMS's capacity guess isn't accurate to 2kWh, so displaying to 0.1 kWh is confusing.

Trend the data; you will approach scenario 'C'

Image
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2324
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: This is normal?

Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:29 am

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.


BMS's capacity guess isn't accurate to 2kWh, so displaying to 0.1 kWh is confusing.

Trend the data; you will approach scenario 'C'


Assuming that you don't do things that throw the numbers off in a consistent pattern, of course.

L1 charging and one driving pattern seem to reduce reported numbers. If you do this all the time, your numbers are likely to be at least several percent low. Trending doesn't help.

DCQC and a different driving pattern seem to increase reported numbers. If you do this all the time, your numbers are can be more than ten percent high. Trending again doesn't help.

Only if you vary from a reduced estimate to an increased estimate would you improve accuracy with a trend. And there are still inaccuracies larger than 0.1kWh.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

briscobully
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:04 am
Delivery Date: 02 Jun 2018
Leaf Number: 315457
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: This is normal?

Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:38 am

SageBrush wrote:Parenthetically, this test can be run 'in reverse' for the same results, charging instead of discharging the battery:

Go to an EVSE like Chargepoint (CP) that reports the kWh during the charging sesssion
Note starting SoC
Charge up an hour or two
Multiply kWh reported from CP by 0.875 to account for charging losses
Note end SoC

Then same arithmetic of discounted_kWh / SoC_delta.



Two questions:
1. Can you not rely on the the remaining kWh displayed on LeafSpy?
2. If everyone on this forum says not to trust the GOM, then why would I trust the % charge remaining or the miles/kWh displayed on the instrument panel?

Is not using LeafSpy for the calculations just because ' garyhere' doesn't have access to LeafSpy?
2015 Leaf 'S' w/ QC package - Brilliant Silver - 12 Bar / ODO- 13,845 miles/ Ahr =60.81 / SOH= 91.52 / QC = 10 / L1/L2 = 420

User avatar
jlv
Posts: 862
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: This is normal?

Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:55 am

briscobully wrote:Two questions:
1. Can you not rely on the the remaining kWh displayed on LeafSpy?
2. If everyone on this forum says not to trust the GOM, then why would I trust the % charge remaining or the miles/kWh displayed on the instrument panel?

1. Yes, you can rely upon it.
2. The GOM displays an interpreted number based upon past driving efficiency, the state of the battery, the phase of the moon, the number of nearby unicorns, and other unknown factors. It is not a raw statistic and has been shown to display a grossly unrealistic number.

In contrast, the dash display of mi/kWh and %SOC are raw statistics. That's why you can trust them.
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17) 33K miTesla S 75D (3/17) 27K mi
3 reservation canceled; X on order.

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