Kieran973
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250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:28 pm

Given the Rapidgate issues with the 2018 Leaf, can a 250 mile highway trip be realistically taken in this car?

I live in the NYC area, and about once a month I make one of two long-distance highway trips: either a 250ish mile trip to the Boston area, or a 250ish mile trip to the Washington D.C. area. These are usually weekend trips, so I drive 250 miles up on Friday, and then 250 miles back on Sunday.

These trips are mostly along Route 95, where the speed limit ranges from 55 MPH to 65 MPH. Let's say for 33% of the trip it's 55 MPH and for 66% of the trip it's 65 MPH. I usually drive the speed limit, in the right lane, dropping my speed by 5 MPH when going up hills.

After spending a lot of time reading through the Nissan Leaf section of Speak EV, my understanding is that the throttling of DC fast charging speeds in the 2018 Leaf does not happen during your second Fast Charge but rather during your third Fast Charge. Is this true?

Here are 2 different ways I would see these trips panning out:

1. Charge to 100% just before leaving. Drive 125 miles at 55-65 MPH. DC Fast Charge for 40 minutes or so up to 80%. Drive another 125 miles. Level 2 charge at destination. Repeat on the way back 2 days later.

or

2. Charge to 100% just before leaving. Drive 90 miles at 55-65 MPH. DC Fast Charge for 20 minutes or so. Drive 80 miles at 55-65 MPH. DC Fast Charge for another 20 minutes. Drive 80 more miles. Level 2 charge at destination. Repeat on the way back 2 days later.

If I have enough range at 55-65 MPH to drive 125 miles, then I would go with option 1 every time. But if weather, elevation, headwinds, HVAC, etc. prevent this, then I would go with option 2 just to be safe. The problem is that option 2 involves a second fast charge, and I haven't been able to get consistent info on whether this second fast charge is throttled or not. Speak EV says no. Bjorn says yes. What says this forum?

Maybe this is overly optimistic, but it seems that in the summer, driving 125 miles at 65 MPH is very doable in the 2018 Leaf. I recently did an 80 mile highway trip in the 2017 Leaf, at similar speeds of 55-65 MPH (though probably 2/3 at 55 and 1/3 at 65), and this only consumed 54% of the battery (started at 92%, ended at 38%). At that rate, this would mean that the 107 mile EPA rated 2017 Leaf has a real world range of 148 miles (albeit in 90 degree weather, with the AC set to 75 degrees, and the fan speed set to 2, and at a median speed of probably 58ish). Or, slightly more conservatively, the trip computer said I averaged 4.8 miles/kWh, times say 28 kWh of usable battery capacity, which equals 134.4 miles of range. Either way, if in optimal conditions the 2017 Leaf has 25% more range at 58 MPH than its EPA rating, then driving 125 miles, or even 150 miles, in the 2018 Leaf at similar speeds seems entirely possible....

alozzy
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:58 pm

This answers your question - short answer is yes:

https://youtu.be/tgrbT_YxhMs
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OrientExpress
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:23 am

2018 LEAF SL
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:16 am

Your best bet is to drive as far as you can from your overnight charge. You WILL get full speed charge on your first DCFC to 60ish % assuming pack isn't approaching 100º but your 2nd will likely only charge at 24 KW no matter what your SOC is.

The real thing is

1) Where are the charging options? Sometimes you have to make 2 stops simply because the stations are not in the right place

2) Forget the car, what are YOUR needs? You don't say what your estimated driving time will be for these trips but with charging stops, its sounds like its going to be a long drive so there are personal needs to address so a contingency plan to cover that is suggested. Get a charge while taking a leak and getting a drink.


Finally; the LEAF GOM is complete crap...well, sort of. You know how it seems to overinflate the range on a full charge only to lose a lot of it as SOC drops? Well, the reality is its shifting the "visible" range into the reserve.

Based on your speed projections, I can EASILY see you getting 160 + miles on a charge. If you can drive that far before getting a charge, you will be golden.

Also, better to charge the night before instead of just before you leave "if" leaving in morning. If not (guessing not) than you run risk of batt temps already being high which may slow down your FIRST QC. so be prepared for that.

Now, this is a "bit" different than your planned trip but should give you some insight as to what your car may do. I did this simply because we simply don't always plan! ;)

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/06 ... ht-or.html
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
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Kieran973
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:11 pm

Thanks for your replies so far.

Thanks, alozzy, for that video. That guy sure is working hard to keep those battery temps down! It's unclear to me, though, whether his second DCFC speed of 39 kW is because he's in mild UK weather, because of his low-speed and waiting-around-the-DCFC-station-for-the-battery-to-cool tactics, or because the second DCFC in a 2018 just isn't throttled as much as the third.

And thanks, Dave, for sharing that detailed post about charging on your 300+ mile trip. I'm surprised you encountered 24 kW quick charge speeds during your second quick charge. My understanding of the whole Rapidgate issue is that, in the 2018 Leaf, the first and second quick charges are fine, but it's the third quick charge that's really painfully slow. Does anyone else have any info on whether the quick charge throttling starts during the second or third quick charge?

Also, where could I find some data on charge time vs. SoC percent gained during a 24 kW quick charge session?

Dave, in answer to your questions:

1. My ideal plan, on the NYC to Boston trip: there is a quick charge station with 4 Chademo plugs 144 miles from me. So ideally, I could reach this DCFC, charge to 80%, then reach my destination having only done the one quick charge. But this seems like I'd be risking breaking down, even driving 55-65 MPH? Plus, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming that in colder weather (say, below 50 degrees), driving 144 miles at 55-65 MPH would not be possible in the 2018 Leaf. So under these circumstances, I could do one of two things:

A.) drive 100 miles to an EVGo station that only has one Chademo plug and which is not in the "No Charge to Charge" network (so I'd have to pay), quick charge, drive 75 miles to a second EVGo station with two Chademo plugs that is in the NCTC program, quick charge, then drive the final 75 miles to my destination

B.) drive 75 miles to a NCTC EVGo station with 6 Chademos, charge, drive another 75 miles to a NCTC EVGo station with 4 Chademos, charge, then drive the final 100 miles to my destination

Option A seems like it would have shorter quick charge times, mostly because the longest leg is at the beginning of the trip.

Option B would be free, driveable in all weather conditions with virtually no chance of not making it, and with virtually no chance of ever having to wait for an in-use or ICEd Chademo plug.

2, My needs: I have an infant son and a wife who is not a huge fan of my recent hypermiling and EV nerdery. If it were just me traveling, I would have a lot more patience for slowish quick chargers. But given that it's not just me, I would consider a maximum of 60 minutes total for 2 DCFC sessions on a 250 mile trip to be acceptable; preferably less than 50 minutes total. Is this realistic?

If anyone can point me in the direction of some data that shows SoC gained vs. time charging on the 2018 Leaf (during either the first or second quick charge, or both), I could come up with a more specific estimate of how long a 250 mile trip might take me. My rough guess for Option B above is:

Drive 75 miles, arrive at first DCFC station with 50% SoC (75 miles of range). Spend 30 minutes charging to 90% SoC (135 miles of range).

Drive 75 miles, arrive at second DCFC with 40% SoC (60 miles of range). Spend 30 minutes charging to 80% SoC (120 miles of range).

Drive the final 100 miles to destination.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:58 am

The real range concern during "colder" weather is not temperatures, its weather and road conditions. It can be 30º but if its clear and dry, you will make it. It can be 70º but it there is heavy rain, expect a 20-30% drop in range.

Other things that happen all the time but mostly in Winter is wind. Some places its the opposite, in some places the wind simply blows all the time. Oh course this will aid you in one direction, impede you in the other.

As far as the "charge slows down on QC#X.... There is a lady in Phoenix who sees under 20 KW on her first charge of the day. Its all about batt temp, not charge sessions.

It is VERY possible on a hot Summer day after driving 144 miles that your pack could be heated enough to see 24 KW as well.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
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maxholland
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:18 pm

For all 2018 Leaf owner or possible future owners who are planning for long trips and want definitive information about what happens with heat and charge throttling, check out this new article on Cleantechnica:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/16/2018-leaf-vs-long-journeys-can-it-take-the-heat/

Jump in the comments there with your own experience and questions!

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OrientExpress
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:48 pm

For all 2018 Leaf owners or possible future owners who are planning for long trips and want definitive information about what happens with heat and charge throttling, from an actual owner,/I would suggest this article.
2018 LEAF SL
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Prior LEAF:
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armmynissanleaf
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:23 pm

Thew new upcoming Nissan leaf will have some real changes and here are the details of those changes coming in the 2019 Nissan Leaf. Particularly it will have a 225 miles range.
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Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:35 pm

The Clean technica article is excellent, and provides much needed quantification. The LEAF owner's Monterey to Tahoe report is far less useful for calculating real world capabilities, as it lacks required information (ambient temps, A/C use), takes the slower, less energy/heating-intensive route (as noted in the article, U.S. 50 rather than I-80) up to Lake Tahoe, strictly travels at the speed limit rather than driving at the flow of traffic speed, and was done in a new car rather than one that's suffered any pack degradation. Even so, it took 90 minutes longer than in an ICE driven by this same owner normally, and plenty of us traveling from the Bay area to Tahoe (from Monterey adds another 1-1.5 hours additional time) don't want to stop along the way to eat.

If you want to test the car under more typical conditions, you drive at flow of traffic speeds on I-80 while using the HVAC (summer and winter conditions, as lots of people go up to Tahoe to ski), and subtract an allowance for battery degradation. Mainly, though, that road trip confirmed the clean technica article showing just how unsuitable a non-TMS 2018 LEAF is for a typical Bay Area weekend road trip when driven normally, as opposed to babying it.
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