Evoforce
Posts: 882
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:02 am

I have read that the speedometer is 5% off so that will mess up your numbers if not accounted for.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 108
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:15 am

Evoforce wrote:I have read that the speedometer is 5% off so that will mess up your numbers if not accounted for.


I wonder if that’s true. Is it OK for manufacturers to do that? Bjorn Nyland said the speedo in the Kona EV he tested was off. I know that in Japan at least they have to be very precise. A speedometer test is part of ‘shaken’ car inspections. If your car doesn’t pass the test you can’t register the vehicle.

GRA
Posts: 10302
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:32 pm

In the U.S. at least, there's a tolerance for speedos, and knowing that erring on the high side won't get them or their customers in trouble (and tends to make the latter a lot happier than an error the other way) manufacturers always have their speedos read high. Most other countries have similar requirements for speedos to never read low: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/culture/commuting/why-you-may-not-be-driving-as-fast-as-you-think/article11487709/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Kieran973
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:45 pm

I started this thread over a year ago back when I was thinking of purchasing a 2018. I have a 2019 SV now, and I just did a roughly 400 mile round trip from NYC to Boston and back. This was a one-night, two-day trip with no destination charging, so I drove 200 miles and did 2 QC's the first day, then stayed overnight and did 200 more miles and 2 more QC's the next day. Surprisingly, there were some 43 kW charge rates where I didn't expect them (I expected the rate to be more throttled). Anyway, here's my report back on that trip.


Day 1

Left NYC area at 8:37 AM
Ambient temp: 57 F
Starting dash SOC: 100%
Leaf Spy battery temp: 67F (I L2 charged at 240V/12A from midnight to 8 AM the previous night in order to reach 100% and to try and balance the cells - I had never charged to 100% before)
Dash battery temperature gauge: gray bar flush with left edge of battery icon (the gray bar was just up to the minus sign on the battery icon)

Drove 99 miles to an EVGo QC station in Hartford, CT. Speed limits ranged between 50-65 MPH. The first 50 miles were hilly 50-55 MPH zones. The second 50 miles were through a flatter 65 MPH zone. In the 50-55 MPH zones, my speed (using the dash speedo, nothing more exact) ranged between the posted limit and 5 mph over. In the 65 MPH zones I drove the posted limit. No precipitation, not much wind, no AC use (I turned the vents on with the fan speed about medium intensity).

When I arrived in Hartford:
Ambient temp: 68F
Dash SOC: 34%
Leaf Spy battery temp: 83F
Dash battery temperature gauge: forgot to take a picture, like an idiot, but I'm pretty sure the gray bar was exactly in the middle of the battery icon


QC #1

There was only one QC station at this location, and I had to wait about 10 minutes for a Bolt to stop using the CCS plus before I could use the Chademo plug.
QC rate started at 35 kW (352V, 100A), then peaked at 36 kW at 58% dash SOC, dropped to 32 kW by 68%, dropped to 22 kW by 84%. Stopped charging at 85%.
QC Time: 33 minutes, 14 seconds (station shut off because of 30 minute NCTC limit, though I wasn't charged any money for the extra 3 minutes)
Energy charged: 17.44 kWh (according to an email from EVGo)
Average charge speed: 17.44 kWh/.55 hours = 31.7 kW
Leaf Spy battery temp after charging: still said 83F and wouldn't refresh (I've found that Leaf Spy can sometimes take 20 minutes to register the actual, current battery temperature. I sometimes didn't have the patience to wait around for this)
Dash battery temperature gauge after charging: gray bar flush with right edge of battery icon (the gray bar was just up to the plus sign on the battery icon)

While the car charged, I used the bathroom, bought a Snickers, ate the Snickers standing in the shade, and responded to some emails. I spent about 5 minutes after the car had stopped charging responding to one email before I actually got in the car and left. I then drove another 97 miles to Boston. Speed limit was 65 MPH the whole way. My speed ranged between 60-65 mph on the speedo. The first half of the drive was hilly and there were significant headwinds. No precipitation, no AC use, vents set to medium. I wanted to arrive with roughly 20% SOC, and I was nervous about the wind, so I drove closer to 60 mph than 65 mph during the last 30 miles or so. I arrived with exactly 20% SOC on the dash.

Arrived in Boston at 1:06 PM.
Total trip time: 4 hours, 29 minutes
Total distance: 196 miles
Average speed including QC stop: 43.7 mph (not terrible, but not great - in an ICEV, without stopping, I could have made this drive in a little over 3 hours)
Dash SOC: 20%
Leaf Spy SOC: 30%
Leaf Spy battery temperature: 105F
Dash battery gauge: gray bar half way between the right edge of the battery icon (the plus sign) and the first red line
Ambient temperature: 73F

I then parked the car in an asphalt lot with no shade and spent the next 6 hours e-biking all over Boston/Cambridge, then eating dinner, then going to a coffee shop. The apartment where I would be staying that night is in the middle of a city block with no L1/L2 charging possibilities. Since I had to leave the following morning, I decided to try and QC up to about 80% that evening and then let the battery cool off overnight. At about 7 PM I drove 7 miles to a QC station. There were 2 EVGo plugs, but one of them was broken and one of them was in use. I had to wait around 30 minutes to use the Chademo. When I did, I was surprised to find that the charge started at 42 kW, considering that I had driven 200 miles that day and that the Leaf had then sat in the sun in 75ish F heat for several hours earlier in the afternoon (though it eventually saw a few hours of shade).

QC #2
Starting SOC: 18%
End SOC: 74% (NCTC limited to 30 minutes)
QC rate started at 42 kW (18% dash SOC) and went up to 43 kW (21% dash SOC). I didn't see what it did after that because I was on the phone/in a mall.
QC Time: 30 minutes, 44 seconds
Energy charged: 20.854 kWh
Average charge speed: 20.854 kWh/.51 hours = 40.9 kW

I then drove to the apartment where I was staying and parked the car on the street overnight.

Day 2

Left Boston at 2:37 PM
Ambient temp: 80F
Starting dash SOC: 70% (Leaf Spy SOC 72.5%)
Leaf Spy battery temp: 73F (car was in a shady spot on the street)
Dash battery temperature gauge: gray bar flush with left edge of battery icon (the gray bar was just up to the minus sign on the battery icon)
So after 200 miles of driving and 2 QC's in the last 24 hours, the battery had essentially returned to the temp I started at in NYC, despite the 80F ambient temp.

Drove 57 miles to EVGo station in Sturbridge, MA. Speed limits were 65 MPH. Drove 65-70 MPH. No precipitation, not much wind, AC on and set to 74F (fan speed at 2). Arrived with 25% dash SOC. There were 4 EVGo plugs and none of them in use so I didn't have to wait.

QC#3
Ambient temperature: 84F
Starting SOC: 25%
End SOC: 80%
QC rate started at 42 kW (360V, 119A) - I was pleasantly surprised by this considering the ambient temp and considering that I had driven 57 miles, much of it at 68-70 mph. At 75%, QC rate was 28 kW.
Dash battery temp at start of charge: gray bar flush with right side (plus sign) of battery icon
Dash battery temp at end of charge: gray bar one notch shy of first red line (so the temp went up a lot during this charge)
Leaf Spy battery temp at beginning of charge: couldn't get a current reading
Leaf Spy battery temp at end of charge: 115F
QC Time: 30 minutes, 18 seconds
Energy charged: 19.270 kWh
Average charge speed: 19.270 kWh/.505 hours = 38.2 kW

I then drove 75 miles to an EVGo station in North Haven, CT. I arrived with 26% dash SOC. Speed limits were 65 MPH. I drove 65-70 MPH with the AC set to 74F and the fan speed to 2. Half of the drive was quite hilly. No precipitation, little wind. EVGo station had six chargers so I didn't have to wait.

QC #4

Ambient temp: 86F
Starting SOC: 26%
End SOC: 72%
Dash battery temp gauge at beginning of charge: amazingly, in the exact same spot as when I left Sturbridge 75 miles earlier - gray bar one notch shy of first red line
Leaf Spy battery temp at beginning of charge: couldn't get a current reading
QC rate started at 30 kW (351V, 86A) (I didn't see where it was after that because I went grocery shopping for 30 minutes)
Dash battery temp at end of charge: the gray bar had one red notch on it, like the tip of a lit cigarette - this red notch ended about 2/3 of the way between the first and second red lines
Leaf Spy battery temp at end of charge: 128.7F
QC Time: 30 minutes, 57 seconds
Energy charged: 15.100 kWh
Average charge speed: 15.1kWh/.516 hours = 29.3 kW

I then drove 72 miles back to NYC. Knowing that I had more than enough charge to get home, I hammered it (by my standards anyway). Speed limits were 65 MPH the first half, 55 MPH the second half. I drove 70-72 mph the first leg, 65 mph the second leg, with the AC on (I forget what temp). There was about 5 minutes of rain and thunder and the ambient temp dropped 15F during the drive home. Hilly, not a lot of wind. I arrived home with 18% dash SOC.

End of trip:
Ambient temp: 71F
Dash SOC: 18%
Battery temp gauge: red notch/cigarette tip had disappeared, and the gray bar had receded back to the first red line
Leaf Spy battery temp: 128.4F
So, according to Leaf Spy, driving at 65-70 mph for over 70 miles caused my battery temp to drop 0.3F. And according to the dash battery temp gauge, my battery temp had dropped a whole "bar" during this drive. Perhaps this is because of the 15F ambient drop?

I let the car sit for 4-5 hours, then charged up to 72% overnight at 240V, 12A. This charging took almost 8 hours. By the morning, the gray bar in the dash battery temp bar was back to exactly in the middle of the battery icon (between the minus and plus sign).

A few conclusions

1. QCing the 40 kWh Leaf causes much more dramatic battery temperature increases than does highway driving at 65ish mph for 60-100 miles.

2. It's possible to drive at least 60 miles at highway speed limits, maybe more, and then achieve a QC rate of over 40 kW during your first QC stop (I'm not sure why QC #1 started at 35 kW, while QC #3 started at 42 kW - both the ambient temp and the battery temp were higher during QC #3 than during QC #1, so perhaps the EVGo charger during QC #1 is to blame (it seemed to max out at 100A, rather than 125A))

3. If you can rely on L2 overnight destination charging on a trip such as this (usually I can - I was just staying somewhere different this time), then in late spring, summer, and early fall weather, with no precipitation, it should be fairly easy to make the 200 mile drive between NYC and Boston with only one 30 minute QC stop, reach Boston with 20% SOC, then make the return trip with only one more 30 minute QC stop on the way back. These QC stops could take even less time if you're willing to reach your destination with 10%, 5%, etc. - I only kept the battery above 20% for long-term battery degradation reasons, but I imagine you could make these single QC stops 20 minutes and still make it to your destination. At least until years of battery degradation extend these 20-30 minute QC stops to intolerable lengths (whatever your patience limit is).
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

SageBrush
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:07 pm

Excellent report -- thanks.
Did you include the time involved for QC #2 in your day #1 travel time and average mph ? I think not, so a different accounting would be:
4.5 hours NYC to Boston
0.25 hours in Boston to reach charger
0.5 hours waiting for charger
0.5 hours charging
---
5.75 hours for that 200 mile leg of the trip.

You seem to have a range of ~ 150 miles per full battery.
Is this a 40 kWh LEAF ?
Last edited by SageBrush on Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13837
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:17 pm

Nice writeup!

Stations vary in the speed they provide even ones at the same location. I have one EVGO station that has stations running between 124 and 118 amps so some variance is normal. I also did a "half trip" yesterday involving two charge sessions. It was 192 miles. Both sessions ran at or very near full speed (one station I was not familiar with and it ran at 118 amps so probably full speed) I left home with 50% charge (which is where my pack lives give or take 20% most of the time)

My second charge started at 88.6º and I thought I would see some throttling but got the full rate (122 amps at this particular station) which was a surprise. My highest temp at full speed before this was around 86º.

As far as reading the temperature meter, it still has 12 increments like the old LEAF style but in segments instead of bars. I blogged my observed temperature ranges along with pix so you can see what each reading looks like.

https://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2019/0 ... -leaf.html


And...

Curious about your delayed LS readings. This is something I have never seen. I do have random connect issues that is solved by removing and reinserting the OBD device. This I do about 3-5 times a year. I am not sure I could accept the issues you are having?
Last edited by DaveinOlyWA on Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kieran973
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:43 pm

SageBrush wrote:Excellent report -- thanks.
Did you include the time involved for QC #2 in your day #1 travel time and average mph ? I think not, so a different accounting would be:
4.5 hours NYC to Boston
0.25 hours in Boston to reach charger
0.5 hours waiting for charger
0.5 hours charging
---
5.75 hours for that 200 mile leg of the trip.

You seem to have a range of ~ 150 miles per full battery.
Is this a 40 kWh LEAF ?


Good point. No, I didn't, only because under normal circumstances on these trips, I'll be able to L2 charge overnight and avoid QC #2. I was trying to just measure what a "normal" trip would be like for me. And because I couldn't destination charge this time, which meant I had to start Day 2 with only 70% SOC, there was an extra QC trip on the way back to NYC that I would normally be able to avoid. I hope, anyway. Stuff happens.

Yes, 40 kWh Leaf. As for the range, 150 highway miles sounds right. But only in mild to warm temps, only with no precipitation, and only when being disciplined about driving the speed limit. I imagine that the range wouldn't be much worse in dry 40 degree F weather. But in any rain, even at 60F, I'll bet it will be significantly worse. This last month that I've had the Leaf, while driving around NYC in rain storms, my efficiency has been destroyed - 3.5 to 3.8 miles/kWh compared to 4.7 - 5.5 miles/kWh in dry weather. And of course, to try and drive from NYC to Boston at 75 mph would make the range tank as well...
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

Kieran973
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:50 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Stations vary in the speed they provide even ones at the same location. I have one EVGO station that has stations running between 124 and 118 amps so some variance is normal.


Yeah, I suppose the more I visit these specific QC stations, the more familiar I'll get with the available amperage of each plug. I was choosing plugs at random this time. Initially I thought the reason that I started at 35 kW during QC #1 was that my SOC was too high (34%), but at least according to that Fastned charging speed graph for the Leaf (which was of course measured during optimal/impractical conditions), the car should charge at a slighter higher rate at 34% than at any point between 20%-34% SOC. I wasn't watching the QC station like a hawk or anything, but the times I did check it, I never saw greater than 100A, which makes me think it was the station, not the car, that produced the 35 kW initial rate.
2019 Leaf SV (silver) with All-Weather Package

SageBrush
Posts: 4040
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:00 am

Kieran973 wrote:Good point. No, I didn't, only because under normal circumstances on these trips, I'll be able to L2 charge overnight and avoid QC #2.

Yeah, destination charging makes a big difference. No less true for my Tesla Model 3 LR, even though it has a much superior fast charging network.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13837
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 250 mile highway trips in a 2018 Leaf?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:44 am

Kieran973 wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Stations vary in the speed they provide even ones at the same location. I have one EVGO station that has stations running between 124 and 118 amps so some variance is normal.


Yeah, I suppose the more I visit these specific QC stations, the more familiar I'll get with the available amperage of each plug. I was choosing plugs at random this time. Initially I thought the reason that I started at 35 kW during QC #1 was that my SOC was too high (34%), but at least according to that Fastned charging speed graph for the Leaf (which was of course measured during optimal/impractical conditions), the car should charge at a slighter higher rate at 34% than at any point between 20%-34% SOC. I wasn't watching the QC station like a hawk or anything, but the times I did check it, I never saw greater than 100A, which makes me think it was the station, not the car, that produced the 35 kW initial rate.


100 amp EVGO's are quite common in many areas of the country
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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