Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs? (SOLVED!)

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joeDees

Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2018
Messages
20
Location
I'm In the HOT Central CA sun
...at least for a while?

I'm considering buying a '13 Leaf SL, 48000 miles, from Carmax through a great program at Valleycan.org where, if you qualify, you trade your old smoker (car that wont pass smog) in. Then they give you $9500 to buy a (an all electric) car! Yes, I said that correctly. $9500! It's really something (which is why I'm doing it). Through this program the car would basically cost me a bit over $2000 plus my old car, which isn't worth much and would be a hassle to get rid of.

I have a 40 mile daily commute. The first half is done in the dead of night, with the last 10 miles basically a gradual uphill climb (only a very short stretch is a bit steep but not too bad). The back-home stretch, done in the morning after rush hour, has a good downhill stretch where a bit of coasting can be done. There's no charging station at work.

When I looked at the car (the first time I had ever been anywhere near a Leaf, except on the road) I saw it has 10 bars, and when turned on it had 99% battery and 66 miles on it (the “guess-o-meter”, right?). We sat there a few minutes talking before driving, with the A/C blasting away (it was hot) and at the start of the drive the miles had gone down to 58 (so I'm sure we used a few miles cooling down the inside of the car). We went on an 8 mile test drive (I had wanted to drive to my work but they wouldn't allow a drive that far), A/C on, with, I'd say about 5 miles start and stop driving and 3 miles on the freeway. At the end the car had 44 miles left after going 8 miles (8 miles caused the car to go down 14 miles). If this were my real commute, using that example, I would have 44 miles on the meter to complete 32 miles worth of driving (with both the uphill and downhill legs still in front of me).

Now, about me and my commute. I've been practising the last couple months driving to work at around 4o mph in anticipation of this new event, and, since there is basically no one else on the road, it's really not that bad. It takes a little more time but it suites me fine. Thats in the middle of the night, when its cool, so I need no A/C. I've also done a lot of night driving wrapped in blankets, so the heating isn't that big of an issue either. Then the drive home is fairly easy too, early enough so its not done in the big heat of the day, but with considerably more traffic.

So do you think this can work for me? I know 10 bars is not really good, I know it could go to 9 at any time and I'm sure 8 bars would probably really put me in the danger zone rangewise, if I could even go 40 miles far at that point. I've read about the new battery option and it sounds like a pretty good deal to me for when the time came, I'd just like to put that off for as long as I could.

I've committed to getting this car, but with the knowledge that I can take it back with no obligation up to 5 days after buying. I explained to the guy they didn't let me test drive the car to where I needed to go to see what its really like, so there could be a very real possibility I could bring the car back. He seemed ok with that.

What do you think? Yay or nay?
 
What's the build month? It's on the driver's side door sticker.

Where did it reside before, per Carfax/Autocheck?

Where are you located? Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

How much is this car? Does it have the premium package? If it does, it'd have the Bose stereo w/subwoofer in the trunk and a camera button on the bezel w/4 camera Around View Monitor.

10 bars on a '13 isn't good. My '13 is at 11 (lost 1st bar in Nov 2017) and looks like it has awhile to go before hitting 10. I'm past 56K miles on my 5/2013 built car.
 
cwerdna said:
What's the build month? It's on the driver's side door sticker.

Where did it reside before, per Carfax/Autocheck?

How much is this car? Does it have the premium package? If it does, it'd have the Bose stereo w/subwoofer in the trunk and a camera button on the bezel w/4 camera Around View Monitor.

10 bars on a '13 isn't good. My '13 is at 11 (lost 1st bar in Nov 2017) and looks like it has awhile to go before hitting 10. I'm past 56K miles on my 5/2013 built car.

Location in profile changed :)

Per Autocheck:
MFG 3/26/13 (Not in April...bad, right?)

Driven nearly 10,000 miles in Georgia.
Around 10,000 in San Jose.
The rest in Roseville.

Car costs $10,998, is SL but doesn't have the premium package.

Maybe this is interesting to you seeing how this battery has gone down in the hot central valley, and hot Georgia, for the most part, compared to yours having all it's time in the bay area.
 
I'm sure some people will probably be thinking that's not a good price for what I'd be getting but I have to fit in with what the program offers, and that is you have to buy the car at Carmax and nowhere else. So, with the way they charge, I already understand I'm most likely not going to get the most possible for the money, nor the greatest selection either.

Pretty much It's go with what they have or don't go at all.
 
Joe:

If you are not in a time crunch and want a Leaf, take the time to get LeafSpy Pro and an OBDII dongle. Learn about GIDs, ahrs, SOC, battery temps, etc. It will be worth your while before deciding on which Leaf to buy. The variability of how many GIDs are used up every mile is quite high and depends on many factors:

My 2012 Leaf (resistive heating only) will drop available miles dramatically - the seat heaters hardly at all, but I'm in South TX, so not much heater required.
The air conditioner will NOT drop miles significantly if I'm the only passenger and all vents are directed on me and temp kept at 76 degrees - very comfortable as the humidity control is excellent. However, put my Grandkids in the back with a hot car and A/C on full blast, the energy usage easily triples (1500 watts +). The heater is funky as it tries to come on with the A/C - quite complicated logic (seems nonsensical). Some good ways to bypass the heater issue on this forum.
I've found that driving around 55 MPH uses optimal power levels and usually can find others going that speed - so no issues except on high speed freeways - which I avoid anyway.
LeafSpy gives battery pack temperatures - VERY useful information for us owners in a hot climate. What I've found is that in normal commute usage, even every day, that parking in shade, combined with late night level II charging (3.3kw) while stored in a garage has resulted in high 80's, low 90's battery temps. However, parking one time in the sun on hot pavement, the temp goes to the high 90's+ and is quite difficult to get back down. I do not quick charge, but my guess is that would cause a similar jump in pack temperatures - maybe more. There seems to be substantial "heat capacitance" in these packs, so in normal use the temps hold fairly constant. My temp bars are still at "6" in South TX and it's been a scorcher this summer.
Don't have many hills in So TX, so not much help on that. I do wonder if for a one charge round trip and using high regen mode, it might not even be an issue? Others may know.

The data I've been able to collect on GIDS per mile ranges from 3.2 to 3.9 based on the conditions stated above. I like GIDS/mi because I believe GIDS are the best measurement of actual battery energy level and with LeafSpy can easily plan a trip with no "range anxiety". I pay little attention to the GOM.

Hope this helps - and it should as you appear to be thoughtful about your purchase. I absolutely have no regrets about this great little car - for it's purpose of commuter transport!
 
Also - since you will likely be "cutting it close", there are usually a few somewhat unexpected miles left when you hit VLBW (very low battery warning). What I've found on my 2012 is that about 20-25 GIDS remain at VLBW. I have not taken it to "turtle", but let's assume there are 5 GIDS at turtle, the actual miles left could be (20-5)/3.2 ~ 5 miles! I use 3.2 GIDS/mi as I'm sure you'll be maximizing your remaining battery by every method possible. Would not do this on purpose as it can be hard on the battery - especially if you have some "weak cells" like I do.

Have others found a consistent GIDS remaining at turtle??
 
If you're able to afford a bit more, I'd try to go for a 2015 with the so-called "lizard" battery. The early 2013 you are thinking about might degrade too quickly in your climate and might make your 40 mile requirement rather sketchy in just a couple of years.

If your local CarMax doesn't have a 2015, keep in mind that in most cases they are willing to bring a car in from a different store. They usually charge for this, but occasionally it's free. For example, here's a 2015 Leaf SV for $12k with 39k miles being offered at their store in Torrance: https://www.carmax.com/car/15912774 Don't know your zip code so I can't determine how much CarMax would charge you to bring it to your local store. However I found a 2017 at their Serramonte (just outside of San Francisco) that they're willing to transfer to my local store here in the LA area for just $149. And one from their Phoenix store for just...$99.

The Modesto store has this 2015 SV with 55k miles for $11,600, but it's "non-transferable." https://www.carmax.com/car/15736049 I'm not sure how far away Modesto is from you. However, if you have access to a tow vehicle of sufficient capacity (or can rent one) and can rent/borrow a tow dolly, you can always bring it home this way, and would be well worth the trouble if for some reason you can't get one for a reasonable transfer fee from one of the other CarMax locations.
 
To explain the build month problem further: the first generation Leaf battery packs, from 2011 through March of 2013, degrade quickly in most climates, and VERY quickly in hot ones. These packs, which I dubbed the "Canary Pack," are not desirable except in that they lower resale value and can be appealing to those with very short commutes. You do NOT want a Canary pack for anything beyond a 30 mile commute. The chemistry was improved greatly beginning in April of 2013, and these packs were made through the rest of 2013 and all of 2014. Dubbed (again by me) the Wolf Packs, they do very well in all climates except hot ones, where they degrade almost as fast as their predecessors. Then, in 2015, Nissan came out with the "Lizard Pack" (nicknamed by Nissan). This pack is the best one that Nissan ever produced. Sadly, when Nissan raised the capacity from 24 to 30kwh in 2016, they sacrificed resistance to degradation for more capacity; the 2016 and 2017 30kwh packs are just as bad as the Canary packs, and possibly even a bit worse under some conditions. I've been calling these abominations the "Lettuce Packs" because of their short shelf life, as it were.

So essentially, you want a pack made between April of 2013 and model year 2016.
 
^^^
Agree w/all of the above, but Nissan released a firmware update for the 30 kWh "lettuce packs". I haven't been following the discussion, but IMHO, it's too early to draw conclusions now about the 30 kWh packs with the update until we wait awhile, possibly another year or two, unless there's some data to show that with the update there still remain 4 bar losers post-update and that they've lost at least 30% of capacity and range autonomy.

We don't know when the switchover to the better pack happened. It might've happened somewhere in 3/2013 (or not at all), but we have no idea. 4/2013+ seems safer, by far.

10 bars sounds almost too good for a car of that vintage and locations. I live in the a hotter part of the Bay Area and my used 5/2013 built '13 Leaf was serviced by the previous driver in Santa Clara, CA. The OP's car might've even been reset or is real close to losing that 10th bar. Leaf Spy can help tell if it's the latter.
 
...Nissan released a firmware update for the 30 kWh "lettuce packs". I haven't been following the discussion, but IMHO, it's too early to draw conclusions now about the 30 kWh packs with the update until we wait awhile, possibly another year or two, unless there's some data to show that with the update there still remain 4 bar losers post-update and that they've lost at least 30% of capacity and range autonomy.

From what I've been reading, the SOH readings (a rough measure of remaining capacity that appears related to internal resistance) have been improving after the update, but except for maybe one or two cases, the range hasn't followed suit. It looks to me more like smoke and mirrors designed to get more of the Lettuce packs through the warranty period, or at least to have them fall below the warranty replacement threshold later (and thus possibly get "refurbished" replacement packs instead of new ones) than a real improvement in usable capacity and range...
 
Ok, I've got a lot to digest here, but I'll start with this.

From what I'm reading here the 2015 lizard pack sounds like the one to get for my really hot (103 degrees yesterday) climate, but the selection is currently really small (2 cars and their both white, which is almost a deal breaker for me) and right at the edge of what I really want to spend.

But there's one thing about my commute and that's pretty much what I'd use the car for. The 2nd half 20 miles of it is done around the 11:00 am hour, when the temperature on these kind of days ranges around 80-90 degrees (while the other half is 2 am-cool), and about 8 miles of it is downhill. I know I read somewhere that some people seem to think that Nissan thinks 80 degrees is really super hot. :shock: Also, the car will be parked in the shade during the hottest part of the days So based on what I said in this paragraph, is it still your opinions that I will really be driving "in really hot conditions" (where a lizard pack will do me the most good)?

And then there's this:

LeftieBiker said:
Then, in 2015, Nissan came out with the "Lizard Pack" (nicknamed by Nissan). This pack is the best one that Nissan ever produced. Sadly, when Nissan raised the capacity from 24 to 30kwh in 2016, they sacrificed resistance to degradation for more capacity; the 2016 and 2017 30kwh packs are just as bad as the Canary packs, and possibly even a bit worse under some conditions. I've been calling these abominations the "Lettuce Packs" because of their short shelf life, as it were.

So essentially, you want a pack made between April of 2013 and model year 2016.

My question about this is, when you go to buy a new battery under their program (which I figure on one day doing) do you get a "lizard pack" or a "lettuce pack?" And do you get the same thing when your car is '13, '14 or '15?

And that's too bad to hear. For someone like me who needs it for the commute, more capacity (meaning more distance on a trip, right?) is not the issue when you need a certain amount (like 40 miles in my case). Why can't we have the choice, lizard or lettuce? In my case the lizard would totally eat the lettuce!
 
The problem that I have seen with the EVs for low income buyers, is that the a few dealers are targeting that market. They buy the lowest car to qualify for the program. Then charge as much as they can for it. I talked if a gal charging at the Bakersfield Nissan that bought from car max on the program. The next month the bars dropped off the range was lower then she needed, and she was stuck with a car that she needed to charge outside of work or home. This is not what she wanted, so if I was I was you, I would look at a Volt, Spark with battery cooling for where you live, or a 15 or newer leaf with a few years leaf on the warranty. The battery will drop 2% per year is normal. So keep that in mind as you look at the car. You should look at a newer car with a small payment that will exceed your needs. They can finance a small loan with a large down. You will have to push them on that because the deal is hard for the dealer. I would get with the ORG and talk with people that have bought on this program before. learn from them as they have been in your spot. Good luck.
 
speedski97 said:
I would look at a Volt, Spark with battery cooling for where you live, or a 15 or newer leaf with a few years leaf on the warranty.

I'm going Leaf or not going at all.

speedski97 said:
I would get with the ORG and talk with people that have bought on this program before. learn from them as they have been in your spot. Good luck.

That's good advice although I doubt they would let me know who I could talk to.

I can, however, make a post here and see if anyone replies, and I think I'll do that.

Thanks
 
joeDees said:
Ok, I've got a lot to digest here, but I'll start with this.

From what I'm reading here the 2015 lizard pack sounds like the one to get for my really hot (103 degrees yesterday) climate, but the selection is currently really small (2 cars and their both white, which is almost a deal breaker for me) and right at the edge of what I really want to spend.

But there's one thing about my commute and that's pretty much what I'd use the car for. The 2nd half 20 miles of it is done around the 11:00 am hour, when the temperature on these kind of days ranges around 80-90 degrees (while the other half is 2 am-cool), and about 8 miles of it is downhill. I know I read somewhere that some people seem to think that Nissan thinks 80 degrees is really super hot. :shock: Also, the car will be parked in the shade during the hottest part of the days So based on what I said in this paragraph, is it still your opinions that I will really be driving "in really hot conditions" (where a lizard pack will do me the most good)?

And then there's this:

LeftieBiker said:
Then, in 2015, Nissan came out with the "Lizard Pack" (nicknamed by Nissan). This pack is the best one that Nissan ever produced. Sadly, when Nissan raised the capacity from 24 to 30kwh in 2016, they sacrificed resistance to degradation for more capacity; the 2016 and 2017 30kwh packs are just as bad as the Canary packs, and possibly even a bit worse under some conditions. I've been calling these abominations the "Lettuce Packs" because of their short shelf life, as it were.

So essentially, you want a pack made between April of 2013 and model year 2016.

My question about this is, when you go to buy a new battery under their program (which I figure on one day doing) do you get a "lizard pack" or a "lettuce pack?" And do you get the same thing when your car is '13, '14 or '15?

And that's too bad to hear. For someone like me who needs it for the commute, more capacity (meaning more distance on a trip, right?) is not the issue when you need a certain amount (like 40 miles in my case). Why can't we have the choice, lizard or lettuce? In my case the lizard would totally eat the lettuce!

Current 24kwh replacement packs are Lizard packs. This may change in the future, but for now when you get a new replacement battery for a pre-2016 leaf, you get a Lizard. If you are considering buying a degraded older Leaf and buying a Lizard pack for it, that can work. The problem is finding a good car with a degraded pack that is inexpensive enough to make it worthwhile. As for the temps during your commute, the problem is that the pack will accumulate heat just from the ambient air temps. So while fast charging the car adds heat, and driving hard adds heat, you can't avoid heat buildup by parking the car in the shade. If it's 90F outside the pack is going to get almost hot enough to degrade even while parked in the shade.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Current 24kwh replacement packs are Lizard packs. This may change in the future, but for now when you get a new replacement battery for a pre-2016 leaf, you get a Lizard. If you are considering buying a degraded older Leaf and buying a Lizard pack for it, that can work. The problem is finding a good car with a degraded pack that is inexpensive enough to make it worthwhile. As for the temps during your commute, the problem is that the pack will accumulate heat just from the ambient air temps. So while fast charging the car adds heat, and driving hard adds heat, you can't avoid heat buildup by parking the car in the shade. If it's 90F outside the pack is going to get almost hot enough to degrade even while parked in the shade.
OK. It looks like it's "BACK TO PLAN A".

The car I'm getting to look at and will either return or accept is an SL (2013), it's one I really like (as opposed to some that I already know I would have personal problems with) and would cost me around $2040 plus the price of the new lizard battery when the time came, which I would, just to be on the safe side, have to assume would be "immediately" (even though I'd try to get as much out of the old one as I could).

If I try to go 2015, with what I see they have right now, they are just cars I don't like nearly as well (SV and white only) and at like for another $500, but heck, that one has 7000 (55000) more miles AND 12 BARS (get out the LeafSpy, right? That 12 bars may not hold up very long, I'd imagine)! I imagine I might get more battery life before making the future battery switch, but 12 bars with 55,000 miles seems pretty unrealistic, doesn't it? And on of of it all, it doesn't have the quick charger. Or I could get a 2015 S for $1000 less but it has more miles too (3000 miles more, it has 51000). I just don't think I want an S no matter what year we're talking.

So I think this is the way I'm really leaning. 2013 SL (with options, colors and interiors I really like) with 47,000 miles for basically around an eventual $8000 (if I can get the nice new lizard battery for about $6000, is that about right?), while expecting to have to pay for that new battery coming probably not very long in the future. Add about $1500-$2000 for a charger and its about $9500-$10000 total.

So what do you all think of that, does it sound like a pretty reasonable deal?
 
joeDees said:
If I try to go 2015, with what I see they have right now, they are just cars I don't like nearly as well (SV and white only) and at like for another $500, but heck, that one has 7000 (55000) more miles AND 12 BARS (get out the LeafSpy, right? That 12 bars may not hold up very long, I'd imagine)! I imagine I might get more battery life before making the future battery switch, but 12 bars with 55,000 miles seems pretty unrealistic, doesn't it?
12 bars at 55K miles on a '15 from a mild climate isn't unrealistic at all.

At http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=508974#p508974 I pointed to:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattlenissanleaf/permalink/1597025036995594/ in the mild PNW lost his first bar on his '13 at 92.7K miles.

His build month was unknown. I don't know of any build months on '13 US Leafs prior to 1/2013.

But, if a '15 came from a hot climate and still has all 12 bars, that'd raise red flags if the battery is the original. The worst I know of on the '15 "lizard" pack so far are some 3 bar losers at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532.

Original replacement cost was http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=17168. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25882 is a claim it went up. Since that post, I've seen some posts to the contrary from other service depts. I'd check w/your or a few service depts near you for a quote.
 
cwerdna said:
Original replacement cost was http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=17168. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25882 is a claim it went up. Since that post, I've seen some posts to the contrary from other service depts. I'd check w/your or a few service depts near you for a quote.

WT...heck?!? :x
 
If you can get an otherwise (except the pack) good 2013 SL for about $2k, it is probably worth putting a new Lizard pack in it. Just check for things like failed heater, charging system issues, etc, first. This brings up another issue, though: the early build 2013 Leafs also seem to have a somewhat higher defect rate. March would probably be ok, but a January build might be Iffy, so look to see what if anything was fixed under warranty...
 
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