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Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 410
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:27 pm

joeDees wrote:But there's one thing about my commute and that's pretty much what I'd use the car for. The 2nd half 20 miles of it is done around the 11:00 am hour, when the temperature on these kind of days ranges around 80-90 degrees (while the other half is 2 am-cool), and about 8 miles of it is downhill. I know I read somewhere that some people seem to think that Nissan thinks 80 degrees is really super hot. :shock: Also, the car will be parked in the shade during the hottest part of the days So based on what I said in this paragraph, is it still your opinions that I will really be driving "in really hot conditions" (where a lizard pack will do me the most good)?


Based on experience with both the original battery in my 2012 Leaf (May '12 manufacture/Sept. titled) and a new "lizard" battery installed in Nov. '16, both batteries have degraded about the same rate of .47 amp-hrs per month overall* (note that this might not correlate directly with GIDS). My Leaf has been in the Houston TX area its entire life with 95+ temps common during all summer months from late May to late August. As you describe your driving, I would estimate you could likely use only 3.2 - 3.5 GIDS per mile (my best guess). IF GIDS correlate well to ahrs, you will likely lose about 2 GIDS per month. *There is another consideration however, and that is during the annual temp cycle, the ahrs tend to reduce (actually quite substantially) during the winter months. That might be the limiting commute for you - depends on how cold a winter. Obtaining a 120 VAC outlet at your workplace might resolve any degradation problem as you would not need too many additional GIDS to make it home - thus putting off buying a replacement battery. Note that at VLBW, there is about 20-25 GIDS remaining.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

joeDees
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:46 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: I'm In the HOT Central CA sun

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:03 pm

joeDees wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Original replacement cost was viewtopic.php?t=17168. viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25882 is a claim it went up. Since that post, I've seen some posts to the contrary from other service depts. I'd check w/your or a few service depts near you for a quote.


WT...heck?!? :x


That news is a big blow to my plans, and may very well derail them. But hey. I guess the reason I'm trying to research this is to learn things good and bad.

After reading this, I'm inclined to be real sympathetic with this guy's post from that thread:

Loving my first BEV :D
MalcolmReynolds
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:39 am
Delivery Date: 04 Jul 2017
Re: Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)
Quote
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:45 pm

What Nissan has effectively just done is signaled the end of the first gen 24kwh Leaf. Price increase on a battery that should be decreasing in price. A price tag that is as high or higher than the value of the older cars. Any plans I had of replacing the battery on my car when it needs replacement have just been terminated. Nissan is effectively telling gen 1 24khw Leaf owners to go away or buy a new car from us.

Well it will be a cold day in a very hot place now before I will buy another Nissan. Thankfully my car is fine for now, but when it becomes effectively useless due to battery degradation it will be off to the salvage yard. That is PATHETIC! My car is still in very good condition and nothing wrong with it. The idea that the battery degrading to the point of uselessness and no effective way to fix it is beyond my breaking point of pissed off.

Nissan had better reverse course on this decision or this will be the last Nissan I ever own. Period.

Evoforce
Posts: 820
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:48 pm

I have to agree that Lizard packs do not (hold up) any better than previous batteries in hot climates based on my direct experience. I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system. Please heed the warnings of those who live in hot climates unless you really don't care about a shortened battery life. While the Leaf is a nice car in every other way, battery degradation is it's Achilles heel. In Arizona, a low 10 bar car will degrade to an 8 bar car in 7-9 months.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

joeDees
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:46 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: I'm In the HOT Central CA sun

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:45 am

Evoforce wrote:I have to agree that Lizard packs do not (hold up) any better than previous batteries in hot climates based on my direct experience. I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system. Please heed the warnings of those who live in hot climates unless you really don't care about a shortened battery life. While the Leaf is a nice car in every other way, battery degradation is it's Achilles heel. In Arizona, a low 10 bar car will degrade to an 8 bar car in 7-9 months.


Hmmm. So, since yesterday I've learned replacement batteries, which were a big part of my plan are now WAAAAY more expensive then I had thought and now Lizard batteries, another big part of my plan, don't hold up well either. Whatta day!

Well, there's another nail in the coffin for my plan!

RonDawg
Posts: 2813
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:51 am

joeDees wrote:Also, the car will be parked in the shade during the hottest part of the days So based on what I said in this paragraph, is it still your opinions that I will really be driving "in really hot conditions" (where a lizard pack will do me the most good)?


Yes, because official temperature readings are "in the shade." So if the official reading was 103 F, that's what it is in the shade. Your battery will last longer vs. a car that's always kept out in the open, but air temps will still be warm.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

RonDawg
Posts: 2813
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:46 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2013
Leaf Number: 027089
Location: SoCal

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:56 am

Evoforce wrote:I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system..


I believe the Chevy Spark EV has liquid cooling for the batteries. Source: https://gm-volt.com/2013/08/02/spark-ev ... t-battery/

Image

I found one at CarMax Modesto with just 16k miles on it for under $12k: https://www.carmax.com/car/15990468 There are cheaper options with higher miles for as low as $9k. I know the OP has said "it's Leaf or nothing" but I would reconsider that stance.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

cwerdna
Posts: 7997
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:20 am

joeDees wrote:
Evoforce wrote:I have to agree that Lizard packs do not (hold up) any better than previous batteries in hot climates based on my direct experience. I would suggest a vehicle with a thermal management system. Please heed the warnings of those who live in hot climates unless you really don't care about a shortened battery life. While the Leaf is a nice car in every other way, battery degradation is it's Achilles heel. In Arizona, a low 10 bar car will degrade to an 8 bar car in 7-9 months.


Hmmm. So, since yesterday I've learned replacement batteries, which were a big part of my plan are now WAAAAY more expensive then I had thought and now Lizard batteries, another big part of my plan, don't hold up well either. Whatta day!

Well, there's another nail in the coffin for my plan!

Disagree with Evoforce's 1st sentence and I think GerryAZ would, as well.

When the Leaf had only been out ~21 months, we already had a 4 bar loser in Phoenix, Blue494 at http://web.archive.org/web/201601280026 ... hp?t=10040.

See GerryAZ's posts at viewtopic.php?p=509371#p509371 and the 4 bar loser a 5/2013 built (same as mine) Leaf in Phoenix.

I personally know of folks in the SF Bay Area, including those in the South Bay (where I am) who have lost 4 bars on the original crap pack ('11 or '12 Leaf), some within the 5 year/60K capacity warranty and another who missed the warranty expiration, so he no longer has a Leaf. He got a Clarity BEV instead. I'm still at 11 bars and still awhile away from hitting 10 even though I'm past the 5 year mark of the capacity warranty.

I'm not aware of any 4 bar losers on the '15 "lizard" pack yet: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532. The worst are 3 bar losers.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9075
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:39 am

I think that the most accurate way to put it would be "The Lizard pack holds up better in very warm temps than either the Canary or Wolf packs, but in very Hot conditions it will still lose one or more bars over a few years." If you can keep a Lizard pack even 5F lower than ambient in your climate, it will lose bars fairly slowly - maybe one every 18 months to two years. The best way to do that cost-wise is to cool a garage to 10F or so below ambient (in hot weather), and keep it there as much as possible, as I'm doing. That's just an educated guess, understand...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

joeDees
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:46 pm
Delivery Date: 0- 0-2018
Location: I'm In the HOT Central CA sun

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:41 pm

RonDawg wrote:
I found one (Chevy Spark EV) at CarMax Modesto with just 16k miles on it for under $12k: https://www.carmax.com/car/15990468 There are cheaper options with higher miles for as low as $9k. I know the OP has said "it's Leaf or nothing" but I would reconsider that stance.


Hmmm. The idea of a Spark may perhaps revive a little interest for me, but I had absolutely no knowledge they even existed until you just mentioned it, so I'd have tons to learn to consider that, I guess. I see CarMax has just 4 of them listed nationwide, so thats not a real big selection.

Dumb question just to show how little I know about the spark, is the "Chevy Spark EV LT" all electric or hybrid (important because under the program I think you only get $7500 for hybrids instead of $9500 for all-electric).

WetEV
Posts: 2198
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Do you think this Leaf will meet my needs

Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:14 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I think that the most accurate way to put it would be "The Lizard pack holds up better in very warm temps than either the Canary or Wolf packs, but in very Hot conditions it will still lose one or more bars over a few years. If you can keep a Lizard pack even 5F lower than ambient in your climate, it will lose bars fairly slowly - maybe one every 18 months to two years.


Battery degradation, like most chemical reactions, follows Arrhenius's equation.

"for many common chemical reactions at room temperature, the reaction rate doubles for every 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation

This isn't an exact relationship, and I've seen some discussion that the temperature required to double the loss rate was slightly less than 10C.

There is no realistic way that 2.5C cooler or warmer would make a dramatic difference.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

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