Ingroundeffect
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:28 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2018

Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:57 pm

I have been debating about buying a new leaf but really dont want a large car payment. Especially on a car that looks to lose value very quickly. It also looks like Nissan will release a 2019 model with a larger battery pack that may push the value of 2018’s even lower faster.

So, that leaves me looking at used leafs. I know i dont want anything pre 2013 and the 2015’s are close to the top of what i want to pay. I have driven 3 local cars. A 2015 S, a 2015 SV and a 2013 SV. All performed more or less equally. The S car is out because one, it is red and two the lack of features. The 2013 SV is out of warranty, has a 10 bar battery and my wife does not like the blue color. The 2015 SV has 11 bars and a battery warranty to 2023. Price was reasonable but i hate the tan cloth interior.

That brings me to a 2013 SL in dark grey with black leather with 44,000 miles. It is 120 miles away at a Subaru dealer. Has no warranty left with a 10 bar battery. May be able to buy it for less than $10k. I have inquired about an extended warranty and inquired what it would cost to have the battery replaced. It is exacly what i am looking for but am worried about the battery condition.

My daily commute is ~35 miles round trip all highway at 70+ mph. The 10 bar 2013 i drove made the trip but consumed 60% of the battery. Right now my only charge option will be a 120 outlet. I worry about a 10 bar car being able to make the trip every day with charging every night. In general will be able to charge nightly for 12 hours.

I am willing to buy a 2015 SV with black cloth but i have seen very few and none within driving distance. It also looks like Nissan made very few SL models.

I live in Oklahoma so summer heat on the battery is a concern. So, should i pursue a 10 bar 2013 with no warranty or should i hold out for a 2015?

If i lived in Denver i would buy a new one because the state / fed / power company rebates come close to knocking $20k off a new car.

I also just ordered a bluetooth obd2 scanner and plan to buy leaf spy to fully check the battery before i buy.

One last thing in this saga. Has anyone purchased an extended warranty and was able to have them replace the battery?

I also am not trusting in buying and shipping a car whether from an individual or a company. This makes it even harder beacause while i am willing to fly and then drive a car back, only having an 80 mile range before stopping fir hours would make driving it home intolerable.

Ingroundeffect
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:28 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2018

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:59 pm

Oh, and thank you for your help. I have enjoyed reading the comments on this site the last few days.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9217
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:35 pm

My daily commute is ~35 miles round trip all highway at 70+ mph. The 10 bar 2013 i drove made the trip but consumed 60% of the battery. Right now my only charge option will be a 120 outlet. I worry about a 10 bar car being able to make the trip every day with charging every night. In general will be able to charge nightly for 12 hours.


First, check the build date on the driver's side door sill sticker. If this car was built before April of 2013, the "Canary Pack" battery will deteriorate very rapidly in your hot climate and is a poor bet. If the car was built from April on, then it will lose capacity somewhat more slowly. If you can easily make that commute on 10 bars at 70+MPH, then with a newer "Wolf Pack" Leaf you should still be able to make it for a few years, albeit maybe at 62-65MPH later on. It comes down, IMO, to whether you want to keep the car long term, or just for a few years. If the latter you should be ok if you take steps to preserve the battery, like not leaving it sitting at 100% charge in the heat. If you want to keep it 5 years or more, then look for a 2015 with 12 bars.

EDIT: I too agree that the price is too high. Maybe for an 11 bar SL it's ok, but not for 10 bars that might even be just over 9.
Last edited by LeftieBiker on Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Lothsahn
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:09 pm

I actually disagree with LeftieBiker. As an owner of a 2011 24kwh Leaf, I would advise against the purchase of ANY 24 kwh used Leaf for a 35 mi round trip highway lifestyle. Period.

My leaf is down to 8 bars (58% SOH) and we can barely get 35 mi round trip, with most of the drive at 45mph. Highway mileage is much worse, so you'll find yourself quite quickly going 55mph just to make it home.

If you have a charging station at your halfway point it'd be a great car. If not, look at a 30kwh or 40kwh or some other EV. In 2 years you'll have an 8 bar battery if you start with 10 bars and then you'll have a shiny (hopefully not blue!) paperweight because it won't make the drive. Don't trust the GOM either. Especially for worn batteries, it overestimates, especially if you drive highway. Ours says 50 mi and we get 35 mi.

Don't worry about 120v charging speed. It's like 8 hours from 0% to 100% on a 10 bar and realistically as the battery gets worse even less. We only charge to 80% so a "full" charge is like 4 hours on our 8 bar battery.

$10k also seems too high unless the battery is great. I bought my 2011 for $5.5k with a 9 bar battery. We have a 24mi round trip non-highway, and I fully intended to spend $5500 in 3 years to replace the battery. Then Nissan upped the cost to $8k with no warning, and they absolutely refuse to sell a battery upgrade to existing owners despite the fact that the pack is absolutely interchangeable with only minor modifications. Also, there's a refurbished pack for only $3k... Japan only. No, it won't be coming to the US, according to Nissan.

0% happy with Nissan. Expect they will provide no assistance replacing your battery. In fact, when you go to do so, it's entirely likely they won't even offer a replacement by then and they have vendor locked third parties from servicing batteries by forcing the battery to be registered.

I would also never buy a new Leaf due to Nissan's support.

P.S. I love my Leaf. Seriously. We have a very low range lifestyle where we drive around 30 miles every day. Driving it is really fun and very quiet. For 2011 with 50k miles, it was super cheap. The AC is super strong and cold. It saves us a lot of money on gas and regular maintenance. But Nissan is sabotaging themselves.

The passenger airbag occupancy sensor went out and Nissan wanted $3k to fix it. The battery replacement had a stealth price hike to $8k and no upgrade to 30 or 40kwh is available. The TCU situation is a complete mess and it took 3 dealerships to fail applying the disconnect TSB (to literally unplug one cable) before I got a wrench and did it myself. So Nissan has been absolutely horrible in every way.

cwerdna
Posts: 8086
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:35 pm

Lothsahn wrote:I actually disagree with LeftieBiker. As an owner of a 2011 24kwh Leaf, I would advise against the purchase of ANY 24 kwh used Leaf for a 35 mi round trip highway lifestyle. Period.

My leaf is down to 8 bars (58% SOH) and we can barely get 35 mi round trip, with most of the drive at 45mph. Highway mileage is much worse, so you'll find yourself quite quickly going 55mph just to make it home.

I haven't had a chance to read all the posts in detail but the above stood out. You must be calling it quits too early and likely aren't using instrumentation to see battery gids, module/cell voltages and the voltage delta between the highest and lowest cell/module and to see what's going on once the car hits VLBW (guess-o-meter turns to --- miles). '11 and '12 Leaf had horrible instrumentation since it didn't have the % SoC display and only had the crap GOM + 12 fuel bars.

Even the 4 bar loser (Blue494) at http://web.archive.org/web/201601280026 ... hp?t=10040 made it over 50 miles on a charge at 100 km/h (~62 mph).

I've taken my car to below VLBW numerous times and haven't had a "date" with the turtle, yet.

Agreed with Leftie's advice of looking for a build month of 4/2013+ or better yet, a model year '15 "lizard" battery car.

10 bar car for $10K sounds high.
Ingroundeffect wrote:The 2015 SV has 11 bars and a battery warranty to 2023.
...
One last thing in this saga. Has anyone purchased an extended warranty and was able to have them replace the battery?

That's only the battery defects warranty. That's 8 years/100K miles on a 24 kWh Leaf.

The battery capacity warranty for 24 kWh cars is 5 years/60K from original in-service date (viewtopic.php?t=13192). Car needs to be down to 8 bars or less before capacity warranty expires (5 years/60K miles, whichever comes first) to be eligible for a free battery. You can d/l the warranty booklets from https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/na ... nualsGuide.

I've never heard of an extended warranty that extending the capacity warranty. Some weirdo on a FB group claimed his did but when asked for proof, he became defensive and I think even insulting before disappearing.

My used 5/2013 built (orig. in-service date near end of June 2013) '13 is still at 11 bars. (Lost it in Nov 2017: viewtopic.php?p=511915#p511915.) Capacity warranty is over but I still am within the battery defects warranty.
Last edited by cwerdna on Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Lothsahn
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:30 am

cwerdna wrote:
Lothsahn wrote:I actually disagree with LeftieBiker. As an owner of a 2011 24kwh Leaf, I would advise against the purchase of ANY 24 kwh used Leaf for a 35 mi round trip highway lifestyle. Period.

My leaf is down to 8 bars (58% SOH) and we can barely get 35 mi round trip, with most of the drive at 45mph. Highway mileage is much worse, so you'll find yourself quite quickly going 55mph just to make it home.

I haven't had a chance to read all the posts in detail but the above stood out. You must be calling it quits too early and likely aren't using instrumentation to see battery gids, module/cell voltages and the voltage delta between the highest and lowest cell/module and to see what's going on once the car hits VLBW (guess-o-meter turns to --- miles). '11 and '12 Leaf had horrible instrumentation since it didn't have the % SoC display and only had the crap GOM + 12 fuel bars.

Even the 4 bar loser (Blue494) at http://web.archive.org/web/201601280026 ... hp?t=10040 made it over 50 miles on a charge at 100 km/h (~62 mph).

I've taken my car to below VLBW numerous times and haven't had a "date" with the turtle, yet.


I just went and rechecked and my leaf is now down to 7 bars, not 8. It has a 58% SOH. At 80% charge, the GOM is 39 miles (it's reads 49 miles at 100%) in park (not eco). After driving the car 26 miles (2 miles at 65 mph, 24 miles at 45 mph), the GOM shows 6 miles. I don't have exact SOC at this point, but I can get it in the next couple days. Voltage delta from min to max battery cell is 22mv according to Leafspy at 6mi left. Tire pressure is 38psi, but it did not come with Ecopia tires.

You are correct in that I haven't taken it to VLBW. I made the assumption that because 39mi drops 33mi in 26 miles, that 6 miles will become 0 in 4-5 miles, but that could be wrong. When I do drive it on the highway, the mileage is far far worse.
Last edited by Lothsahn on Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ingroundeffect
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:28 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2018

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:18 am

Car Fax shows a manufacture date of 7/25/2013. Looks like it sat on the lot for a year before being sold.
Looks like it was traded in to the dealer about a month ago.

My thought is to offer $8k and see where that goes.

https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p ... %7C-121%7C

cwerdna
Posts: 8086
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:03 am

Lothsahn wrote:I just went and rechecked and my leaf is now down to 7 bars, not 8. It has a 58% SOH. At 80% charge, the GOM is 39 miles (it's reads 49 miles at 100%) in park (not eco). After driving the car 26 miles (2 miles at 65 mph, 24 miles at 45 mph), the GOM shows 6 miles. I don't have exact SOC at this point, but I can get it in the next couple days. Voltage delta from min to max battery cell is 22mv according to Leafspy at 6mi left. Tire pressure is 38psi, but it did not come with Ecopia tires.

You are correct in that I haven't taken it to VLBW. I made the assumption that because 39mi drops 33mi in 26 miles, that 6 miles will become 0 in 4-5 miles, but that could be wrong. When I do drive it on the highway, the mileage is far far worse.

Oh. Eek regarding 7 bars. :( Yeah, you're calling it quits too early and it sounds like you aren't charging to full either. The GOM still actually shows a number and yes the GOM sucks.

As I mentioned at viewtopic.php?p=447143#p447143, Turbo3 told me about the imbalance reaching hundreds of mV when near dead.

Your tire pressure is too low and it's possible your tires are also further hurting your range.

You can also use the Leaf Spy's smarter GOM to help adjust your driving if you need to make a certain distance.

Don't worry about the % SoC that Leaf Spy shows. IMHO, that's worthless. Instead, look at the raw number of gids. LBW should sound at ~49 gid and VLBW should sound at ~24 gid.
Last edited by cwerdna on Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

joeriv
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:33 pm
Location: Fairfield County CT

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:06 am

I was quoted $3,000 last year on my 2013S, 12 bars and 12,000 miles for a trade-in - sold it privately for $7,500. I doubt the dealer paid more than $4,000 for it.
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

Ingroundeffect
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:28 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2018

Re: Looking at a 2013 Leaf

Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:20 pm

Well, i offered $7k for the car and they said they have more than that in it and the best option is to visit the store to make an offer. It is a 1.5 hour drive and i hate to go if the car will be much more than 7. Their Nissan store quoted $7,500 for a battery.

Told them $7,000 for the car + $7,500 for a battery = a 11-12 bar 2015 SL with a warranty.

Biggest problem is there are litterally 5 Leafs for sale in Oklahoma and I cant reall justify paying to ship a car and anything past 200 miles really gets hard to pick up and drive back.

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