Looking at a 2013 Leaf

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Sep 4, 2018
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I have been debating about buying a new leaf but really dont want a large car payment. Especially on a car that looks to lose value very quickly. It also looks like Nissan will release a 2019 model with a larger battery pack that may push the value of 2018’s even lower faster.

So, that leaves me looking at used leafs. I know i dont want anything pre 2013 and the 2015’s are close to the top of what i want to pay. I have driven 3 local cars. A 2015 S, a 2015 SV and a 2013 SV. All performed more or less equally. The S car is out because one, it is red and two the lack of features. The 2013 SV is out of warranty, has a 10 bar battery and my wife does not like the blue color. The 2015 SV has 11 bars and a battery warranty to 2023. Price was reasonable but i hate the tan cloth interior.

That brings me to a 2013 SL in dark grey with black leather with 44,000 miles. It is 120 miles away at a Subaru dealer. Has no warranty left with a 10 bar battery. May be able to buy it for less than $10k. I have inquired about an extended warranty and inquired what it would cost to have the battery replaced. It is exacly what i am looking for but am worried about the battery condition.

My daily commute is ~35 miles round trip all highway at 70+ mph. The 10 bar 2013 i drove made the trip but consumed 60% of the battery. Right now my only charge option will be a 120 outlet. I worry about a 10 bar car being able to make the trip every day with charging every night. In general will be able to charge nightly for 12 hours.

I am willing to buy a 2015 SV with black cloth but i have seen very few and none within driving distance. It also looks like Nissan made very few SL models.

I live in Oklahoma so summer heat on the battery is a concern. So, should i pursue a 10 bar 2013 with no warranty or should i hold out for a 2015?

If i lived in Denver i would buy a new one because the state / fed / power company rebates come close to knocking $20k off a new car.

I also just ordered a bluetooth obd2 scanner and plan to buy leaf spy to fully check the battery before i buy.

One last thing in this saga. Has anyone purchased an extended warranty and was able to have them replace the battery?

I also am not trusting in buying and shipping a car whether from an individual or a company. This makes it even harder beacause while i am willing to fly and then drive a car back, only having an 80 mile range before stopping fir hours would make driving it home intolerable.
 
My daily commute is ~35 miles round trip all highway at 70+ mph. The 10 bar 2013 i drove made the trip but consumed 60% of the battery. Right now my only charge option will be a 120 outlet. I worry about a 10 bar car being able to make the trip every day with charging every night. In general will be able to charge nightly for 12 hours.

First, check the build date on the driver's side door sill sticker. If this car was built before April of 2013, the "Canary Pack" battery will deteriorate very rapidly in your hot climate and is a poor bet. If the car was built from April on, then it will lose capacity somewhat more slowly. If you can easily make that commute on 10 bars at 70+MPH, then with a newer "Wolf Pack" Leaf you should still be able to make it for a few years, albeit maybe at 62-65MPH later on. It comes down, IMO, to whether you want to keep the car long term, or just for a few years. If the latter you should be ok if you take steps to preserve the battery, like not leaving it sitting at 100% charge in the heat. If you want to keep it 5 years or more, then look for a 2015 with 12 bars.

EDIT: I too agree that the price is too high. Maybe for an 11 bar SL it's ok, but not for 10 bars that might even be just over 9.
 
I actually disagree with LeftieBiker. As an owner of a 2011 24kwh Leaf, I would advise against the purchase of ANY 24 kwh used Leaf for a 35 mi round trip highway lifestyle. Period.

My leaf is down to 8 bars (58% SOH) and we can barely get 35 mi round trip, with most of the drive at 45mph. Highway mileage is much worse, so you'll find yourself quite quickly going 55mph just to make it home.

If you have a charging station at your halfway point it'd be a great car. If not, look at a 30kwh or 40kwh or some other EV. In 2 years you'll have an 8 bar battery if you start with 10 bars and then you'll have a shiny (hopefully not blue!) paperweight because it won't make the drive. Don't trust the GOM either. Especially for worn batteries, it overestimates, especially if you drive highway. Ours says 50 mi and we get 35 mi.

Don't worry about 120v charging speed. It's like 8 hours from 0% to 100% on a 10 bar and realistically as the battery gets worse even less. We only charge to 80% so a "full" charge is like 4 hours on our 8 bar battery.

$10k also seems too high unless the battery is great. I bought my 2011 for $5.5k with a 9 bar battery. We have a 24mi round trip non-highway, and I fully intended to spend $5500 in 3 years to replace the battery. Then Nissan upped the cost to $8k with no warning, and they absolutely refuse to sell a battery upgrade to existing owners despite the fact that the pack is absolutely interchangeable with only minor modifications. Also, there's a refurbished pack for only $3k... Japan only. No, it won't be coming to the US, according to Nissan.

0% happy with Nissan. Expect they will provide no assistance replacing your battery. In fact, when you go to do so, it's entirely likely they won't even offer a replacement by then and they have vendor locked third parties from servicing batteries by forcing the battery to be registered.

I would also never buy a new Leaf due to Nissan's support.

P.S. I love my Leaf. Seriously. We have a very low range lifestyle where we drive around 30 miles every day. Driving it is really fun and very quiet. For 2011 with 50k miles, it was super cheap. The AC is super strong and cold. It saves us a lot of money on gas and regular maintenance. But Nissan is sabotaging themselves.

The passenger airbag occupancy sensor went out and Nissan wanted $3k to fix it. The battery replacement had a stealth price hike to $8k and no upgrade to 30 or 40kwh is available. The TCU situation is a complete mess and it took 3 dealerships to fail applying the disconnect TSB (to literally unplug one cable) before I got a wrench and did it myself. So Nissan has been absolutely horrible in every way.
 
Lothsahn said:
I actually disagree with LeftieBiker. As an owner of a 2011 24kwh Leaf, I would advise against the purchase of ANY 24 kwh used Leaf for a 35 mi round trip highway lifestyle. Period.

My leaf is down to 8 bars (58% SOH) and we can barely get 35 mi round trip, with most of the drive at 45mph. Highway mileage is much worse, so you'll find yourself quite quickly going 55mph just to make it home.
I haven't had a chance to read all the posts in detail but the above stood out. You must be calling it quits too early and likely aren't using instrumentation to see battery gids, module/cell voltages and the voltage delta between the highest and lowest cell/module and to see what's going on once the car hits VLBW (guess-o-meter turns to --- miles). '11 and '12 Leaf had horrible instrumentation since it didn't have the % SoC display and only had the crap GOM + 12 fuel bars.

Even the 4 bar loser (Blue494) at http://web.archive.org/web/20160128002617/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10040 made it over 50 miles on a charge at 100 km/h (~62 mph).

I've taken my car to below VLBW numerous times and haven't had a "date" with the turtle, yet.

Agreed with Leftie's advice of looking for a build month of 4/2013+ or better yet, a model year '15 "lizard" battery car.

10 bar car for $10K sounds high.
Ingroundeffect said:
The 2015 SV has 11 bars and a battery warranty to 2023.
...
One last thing in this saga. Has anyone purchased an extended warranty and was able to have them replace the battery?
That's only the battery defects warranty. That's 8 years/100K miles on a 24 kWh Leaf.

The battery capacity warranty for 24 kWh cars is 5 years/60K from original in-service date (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192). Car needs to be down to 8 bars or less before capacity warranty expires (5 years/60K miles, whichever comes first) to be eligible for a free battery. You can d/l the warranty booklets from https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/navigation/manualsGuide.

I've never heard of an extended warranty that extending the capacity warranty. Some weirdo on a FB group claimed his did but when asked for proof, he became defensive and I think even insulting before disappearing.

My used 5/2013 built (orig. in-service date near end of June 2013) '13 is still at 11 bars. (Lost it in Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=511915#p511915.) Capacity warranty is over but I still am within the battery defects warranty.
 
cwerdna said:
Lothsahn said:
I actually disagree with LeftieBiker. As an owner of a 2011 24kwh Leaf, I would advise against the purchase of ANY 24 kwh used Leaf for a 35 mi round trip highway lifestyle. Period.

My leaf is down to 8 bars (58% SOH) and we can barely get 35 mi round trip, with most of the drive at 45mph. Highway mileage is much worse, so you'll find yourself quite quickly going 55mph just to make it home.
I haven't had a chance to read all the posts in detail but the above stood out. You must be calling it quits too early and likely aren't using instrumentation to see battery gids, module/cell voltages and the voltage delta between the highest and lowest cell/module and to see what's going on once the car hits VLBW (guess-o-meter turns to --- miles). '11 and '12 Leaf had horrible instrumentation since it didn't have the % SoC display and only had the crap GOM + 12 fuel bars.

Even the 4 bar loser (Blue494) at http://web.archive.org/web/20160128002617/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10040 made it over 50 miles on a charge at 100 km/h (~62 mph).

I've taken my car to below VLBW numerous times and haven't had a "date" with the turtle, yet.

I just went and rechecked and my leaf is now down to 7 bars, not 8. It has a 58% SOH. At 80% charge, the GOM is 39 miles (it's reads 49 miles at 100%) in park (not eco). After driving the car 26 miles (2 miles at 65 mph, 24 miles at 45 mph), the GOM shows 6 miles. I don't have exact SOC at this point, but I can get it in the next couple days. Voltage delta from min to max battery cell is 22mv according to Leafspy at 6mi left. Tire pressure is 38psi, but it did not come with Ecopia tires.

You are correct in that I haven't taken it to VLBW. I made the assumption that because 39mi drops 33mi in 26 miles, that 6 miles will become 0 in 4-5 miles, but that could be wrong. When I do drive it on the highway, the mileage is far far worse.
 
Car Fax shows a manufacture date of 7/25/2013. Looks like it sat on the lot for a year before being sold.
Looks like it was traded in to the dealer about a month ago.

My thought is to offer $8k and see where that goes.

https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=AMF_0&vin=-19%7C-43%7C-20%7C-67%7C19%7C-76%7C-38%7C32%7C-50%7C77%7C-14%7C113%7C95%7C-118%7C-111%7C-42%7C93%7C123%7C103%7C-76%7C-17%7C-30%7C-21%7C-121%7C
 
Lothsahn said:
I just went and rechecked and my leaf is now down to 7 bars, not 8. It has a 58% SOH. At 80% charge, the GOM is 39 miles (it's reads 49 miles at 100%) in park (not eco). After driving the car 26 miles (2 miles at 65 mph, 24 miles at 45 mph), the GOM shows 6 miles. I don't have exact SOC at this point, but I can get it in the next couple days. Voltage delta from min to max battery cell is 22mv according to Leafspy at 6mi left. Tire pressure is 38psi, but it did not come with Ecopia tires.

You are correct in that I haven't taken it to VLBW. I made the assumption that because 39mi drops 33mi in 26 miles, that 6 miles will become 0 in 4-5 miles, but that could be wrong. When I do drive it on the highway, the mileage is far far worse.
Oh. Eek regarding 7 bars. :( Yeah, you're calling it quits too early and it sounds like you aren't charging to full either. The GOM still actually shows a number and yes the GOM sucks.

As I mentioned at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=447143#p447143, Turbo3 told me about the imbalance reaching hundreds of mV when near dead.

Your tire pressure is too low and it's possible your tires are also further hurting your range.

You can also use the Leaf Spy's smarter GOM to help adjust your driving if you need to make a certain distance.

Don't worry about the % SoC that Leaf Spy shows. IMHO, that's worthless. Instead, look at the raw number of gids. LBW should sound at ~49 gid and VLBW should sound at ~24 gid.
 
I was quoted $3,000 last year on my 2013S, 12 bars and 12,000 miles for a trade-in - sold it privately for $7,500. I doubt the dealer paid more than $4,000 for it.
 
Well, i offered $7k for the car and they said they have more than that in it and the best option is to visit the store to make an offer. It is a 1.5 hour drive and i hate to go if the car will be much more than 7. Their Nissan store quoted $7,500 for a battery.

Told them $7,000 for the car + $7,500 for a battery = a 11-12 bar 2015 SL with a warranty.

Biggest problem is there are litterally 5 Leafs for sale in Oklahoma and I cant reall justify paying to ship a car and anything past 200 miles really gets hard to pick up and drive back.
 
Have you tried Carvana? I looked on their site using Oklahoma City zip code and they have a good selection of Leafs. With a 7 day return policy I think this would give you more choices.

You are thinking of spending $14,500 with a new battery- seems like you can do better with Carvana. I have never used them so I am only suggesting another option.
 
I have looked at carvana but i dont think any of their inventory is in OKC. I contacted vroom.com about a car listed in okc but reality is all of their inventory is in Houston. Those listings are a sham to make you think the car is local when it is not.

Also, i have seen a couple of 2014/2105 cars that are 11/12 bar cars with above 50,000 miles. Is it possible to have a 3/4 year old leaf that is still 11/12 bars? Are they ressetting the bms for the photos?
 
There are likely 2012 Leafs with Canary packs and almost 100k miles on them with 12 bars. It depends on the climate and pack type more than mileage or age. Carvana and other dealers tend to get off-lease cars from hot climates. You have to use the VIN check services (there is a good free one*) to find out where the car resided previously.


* https://www.vehiclehistory.com/vehicle/land.php
 
@Ingroundeffect If the BMS was reset, there would be 12 capacity bars showing and the LeafSpy stats would be suspiciously high. It's a pretty safe bet that, at least for a 2013, you're seeing actual capacity bars remaining. For a 2013 LEAF that's resided in a cooler climate, 11 bars is actually pretty typical - 12 bars though would be exceedingly rare at this point.

A BMS reset, although unlikely, is a strong possibility on a 2015 that's showing 12 capacity bars, yet originates from a hot climate (ie Texas, Arizona, etc).

Any 2015 that's resided in a cooler climate will likely have 12 capacity bars remaining (i.e. a PNW 2015 LEAF would almost certainly have 12 capacity bars remaining).
 
Most every car i am looking at will be in the oklahoma, texas, kansas area. General summer temps in the 90’s. We have not had many scorchers the last 5 years above 100 for more than a day or 2.
 
cwerdna said:
Lothsahn said:
I just went and rechecked and my leaf is now down to 7 bars, not 8. It has a 58% SOH. At 80% charge, the GOM is 39 miles (it's reads 49 miles at 100%) in park (not eco). After driving the car 26 miles (2 miles at 65 mph, 24 miles at 45 mph), the GOM shows 6 miles. I don't have exact SOC at this point, but I can get it in the next couple days. Voltage delta from min to max battery cell is 22mv according to Leafspy at 6mi left. Tire pressure is 38psi, but it did not come with Ecopia tires.

You are correct in that I haven't taken it to VLBW. I made the assumption that because 39mi drops 33mi in 26 miles, that 6 miles will become 0 in 4-5 miles, but that could be wrong. When I do drive it on the highway, the mileage is far far worse.
Oh. Eek regarding 7 bars. :( Yeah, you're calling it quits too early and it sounds like you aren't charging to full either. The GOM still actually shows a number and yes the GOM sucks.

As I mentioned at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=447143#p447143, Turbo3 told me about the imbalance reaching hundreds of mV when near dead.

Your tire pressure is too low and it's possible your tires are also further hurting your range.

You can also use the Leaf Spy's smarter GOM to help adjust your driving if you need to make a certain distance.

Don't worry about the % SoC that Leaf Spy shows. IMHO, that's worthless. Instead, look at the raw number of gids. LBW should sound at ~49 gid and VLBW should sound at ~24 gid.

So you were right. I call it quits when it shows 8 miles left or so, but that leaves 50 gids in my pack. I should be more willing to go lower--I was afraid the car would just quit. But with 50 gids left, that's a lot of leftover range...

I'm also not willing to inflate my tires more. Two of the tires are max rated for 44 psi, so I don't want to put more than 38 psi cold into them, as when temps go up or as you drive on them, pressures rise. No potential tire failure is worth an extra mile or two of range. I guess I could inflate the other two to 40-42 psi (they max at 50psi).

I'm sure the previous owner qualified for an in-warranty battery replacement. Unfortunately, they didn't do that, and it's beyond 5 years now, so too bad for me.

Btw, driving very conservatively (slower speeds and braking very carefully) I started at 70% SOC (120 gids) and got home with 40 gids after going 35 miles round trip. That means at 100% SOC I should be able to get 74 miles, which would be rather insane on a 7 bar battery. Keep in mind that I caught nearly every green light, almost never used the brakes, and was going 40 MPH most of the trip :) But again, once I get on a highway and I'm going 60-70 mph, the range and battery tanks. It may be amplified by my weak battery--an older battery will have a higher internal resistance, which will kick in at higher current draws. So I expect to lose more mileage at high power settings than those with a fresh battery.
 
Lothsahn said:
I'm also not willing to inflate my tires more. Two of the tires are max rated for 44 psi, so I don't want to put more than 38 psi cold into them, as when temps go up or as you drive on them, pressures rise. No potential tire failure is worth an extra mile or two of range. I guess I could inflate the other two to 40-42 psi (they max at 50psi).
Max 44 psi is almost certainly max cold pressure, not max hot/warm pressure. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=196 concurs with this.

I would be more concerned about running out once you go below much below VLBW (2nd warning) which is when the GOM goes to --- miles and should sound at ~24 gids. Since I've not had a "date with the turtle" yet, someone else w/expertise will have to chime in regards to the triggers for turtle lighting up followed by contactor opening (car saying it's done). People have talked about the voltage of the lowest module being the criteria, but I'm not clear of the actual values on an '11 or '12 that'd trigger it.

https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011/long-term-road-test/2011-nissan-leaf-driving-it-to-the-bitter-end.html has a video of them driving a new '11 Leaf until dead. Leaf Spy didn't exist yet and they didn't have a gid meter (not sure if it was figured out yet).
 
The max sidewall pressure rating is always cold, and people here run tires as high as 50psi. I don't endorse that, but those of us who run 40-42psi aren't endangering anyone.
 
cwerdna said:
Max 44 psi is almost certainly max cold pressure, not max hot/warm pressure. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=196 concurs with this.

Awesome, good to know. Learn something new every day. Thanks!
 
cwerdna said:
Lothsahn said:
I'm also not willing to inflate my tires more. Two of the tires are max rated for 44 psi, so I don't want to put more than 38 psi cold into them, as when temps go up or as you drive on them, pressures rise. No potential tire failure is worth an extra mile or two of range. I guess I could inflate the other two to 40-42 psi (they max at 50psi).
Max 44 psi is almost certainly max cold pressure, not max hot/warm pressure. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=196 concurs with this.

I would be more concerned about running out once you go below much below VLBW (2nd warning) which is when the GOM goes to --- miles and should sound at ~24 gids. Since I've not had a "date with the turtle" yet, someone else w/expertise will have to chime in regards to the triggers for turtle lighting up followed by contactor opening (car saying it's done). People have talked about the voltage of the lowest module being the criteria, but I'm not clear of the actual values on an '11 or '12 that'd trigger it.

https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2011/long-term-road-test/2011-nissan-leaf-driving-it-to-the-bitter-end.html has a video of them driving a new '11 Leaf until dead. Leaf Spy didn't exist yet and they didn't have a gid meter (not sure if it was figured out yet).
Great advice. I've not visited the turtle in a while, but you can easily expect 10 mi after LBW to VLBW and then another 10 mi to turtle. Granted, this is at LESS than freeway speeds, 35-50 mph. On a 7-bar car, not driven below LBW, I would expect very little range, like the 20-30 mi reported. Once anyone gets to those levels, you have to expect more difficulties and certainly getting more used to LBW and even VLBW. I keep my 9 bar 2011 Leaf charged to about 4-5 bars, in preparation for those future days, but then my commute is 8 mi RT on 35 mph surface streets.
 
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