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NoReleaf

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Messages
66
Location
Wheaton, Illinois, USA
Hi there, everyone. Allow me to introduce myself. But first, an idea of the basic forum-related questions I have right now, topics of particular interest to me where old hands might be able to point me to a useful existing thread (anything I would want to know at this early stage has surely been covered):

Battery charging (and battery life) strategy in cold winter/hot summer climates (US Midwest)
Trip strategy - getting more than expected (commuter and around-town vehicle) out of the Leaf

I leased a new 2018 Leaf about 7 weeks ago. Three years, 12,000 miles per. The reason was that I needed a car to replace the 1999 Saturn SL2 I'd had for 10 years - with winter approaching, it had a heater/defroster problem that could not be repaired cost-effectively, if at all. I was motivated to go with something other than an ICE vehicle by the idea that it was a step in the right direction, environmentally. Not a huge step, but a step. I should have gotten on the hybrid/electric train some time ago, but 19 years of driving reliable and very fuel-efficient Saturns made this kind of a distant concern. What sold me on the Leaf once I had test-driven it was that it was just plain comfortable and smooth-driving. Felt right. (I also test-drove a Volt with a stereo system to die for, but I had to consider that I would not be living in the car.) Not to mention that this would be a MAJOR upgrade for me, overall, over the utilitarian Saturns. A car that might even be fun to drive. That would be a first for me.

So far, so good. I look forward to lower maintenance costs and somewhat lower fuel costs (electricity is very expensive where I live, and I was not spending a lot on gasoline to begin with) making the cost of the Leaf about the same as operating an old Saturn over the next three years, maybe even less. I am not sure now whether a lease was the best choice, and I might have limited myself too much with 12,000 miles per year (I like driving the Leaf so much that I want to drive it even when I don't need to). But I have what I needed, a get-to-work and shopping car for which the Leaf provides more than enough range.

Currently, I do not have a garage or any source of 220V electricity at home, so charging is a matter of a trickle charge overnight, outdoor outlet (and not on a dedicated circuit, either). Public charging stations (L2) are surprisingly abundant in my area of the Chicago suburbs. DC fast charging is only available at one feasible location, a Nissan dealership. I made a point of driving around to all the local charging stations soon after I got the Leaf, and the research has continued since. I like to know which ones work and how well they work, and how available they are, etc.. The problem with all but one... well, the problem with L2 public charging in general is that it is too slow and not available anywhere I would normally park for an hour or two. It is great that it is available (a power outage at home recently underscored that point), but it has no everyday practical value to me right now. I have not been in situations where spending an hour to add maybe 20 miles of range would make any sense, and except for one charging station that I can walk to and from in 40 minutes total, everything else costs charge to even get to (departure from route).

I'm just about resigned to the fact that I will never take any kind of road trip with this Leaf, but I'm interested in any stories anyone might have about exceeding such expectations or trying to. I have calculated that a trip from the Chicago area to the Grand Rapids, Michigan area would take pleasant weather, some luck, and 18 hours total one way. 4 hours driving (max) and 14 hours sitting still and charging (zero fast charging en route possible). That would be an adventure. I'm not sure I'm up for it, though.

I have seen conflicting viewpoints about the optimal level to charge a Leaf battery up to on a running basis, and I just ran across some comments that made me concerned about what goes on just by virtue of the EVSE being connected, even when it is finished (or has not yet begun) charging. The brief evolution of my charging strategy has come to this: Charge overnight with the timer set midnight to 7:20 AM after any normal driving day ("Full charge has priority" OFF). Plug in as convenient when I figure I'm done for the day. Climate control timer set to 7:20 AM for winter the 5 days I work only ("Battery" ON, would not be using it at all outside of winter). One day a week I might not drive, plug in, or charge at all. Normal driving uses 20-25% of the battery daily. Overnight typically charges back up to 100% or close to it. I wonder if this is the wrong approach. I do not need full range every day or even close. But there is something about leaving a battery partially discharged outside when outdoor temperatures are constantly below freezing that bothers me. Obviously, I have yet to get a handle on how lithium ion batteries in cars really work, not to mention their relationship with the standard 12V battery in the Leaf. I'm stuck on the old "a cold battery is a bad thing" model. Also, I have noticed that heating functions start getting a bit challenged at around 70% or less. Enough to notice. Going there every single day or even every other day would make the Leaf a lot less fun. In more moderate seasons I would be happy to charge much less often.

Thanks for reading this far if you did. Questions, comments, and especially advice on informative threads to check out are all welcome.

Sean
 
You don't absolutely need a dedicated 120 volt circuit for L-1 charging IF the other loads are very small, like low wattage lights. Keep in mind that the EVSE will pull roughly 1200 watts at 120 volts, and that you should keep about 20% of the maximum load unused when charging for hours.

If you are worried about the 12 volt battery dying while the car is plugged in but not charging, that shouldn't be a problem if it isn't plugged in that way for days. I haven't yet seen any signs of accessory battery issues with my 2018. nor has anyone else, AFAIK.

The heat shouldn't drop noticeably below 70% charge. That is either your imagination or a flaw with your car. If you are driving in Eco mode, try D (normal) mode.

You are right that charging to 100% every day when you only use 20% or so isn't good. Try charging once every two or three days, and try to unplug it before it quite reaches 100% - 90% is fine. This is less an issue in Winter, but now is the time to develop better habits.
 
Thank you, LeftieBiker. Good to hear from someone also in a cold climate. Cold will be my main concern for the next four months. The majority of posters here seem to be more concerned with heat. I gather that electric vehicles are a good deal more popular in the warmer US climates. I do not see a whole lot of them on the road here, and those I do see are mostly Teslas.

Good info on the circuit. I have no control over what else might happen to be used on it while I'm charging (roommate, night owl, and there's a lot more on it than lights in a small and fairly old house), but there hasn't been a problem so far.

No, no possibility of leaving it plugged in but not charging for days. (Or of leaving it at 100% charged but not driven for days, in any weather, for that matter.) If nothing mysterious is happening during the odd hour or three when I'm plugged in before or after a timed charge, great.

The heat drop could be my imagination. I'm rarely driving at 70% or below, not enough data. But turning off ECO didn't occur to me, makes sense now.

I can limit the everyday charge time to avoid the recurring 100% or close. That's easy enough to figure. Do you find any credence to the idea that charging to 100% on some kind of regular basis is necessary or at least beneficial?
 
Charging to 100% occasionally will balance the cells in the pack. I've seen my car's cell voltage readings 'wander off' and become less balanced, then return to balance after a 100% charge. It isn't clear how important it is to have all the cells at virtually the same voltage unless you really need every mile of range. Once a month should be enough for a balance charge.

You really do have a problem with your charging circuit. If it gets loaded passed capacity the breaker should trip (or fuse blow), but if it gets loaded to 99 or 100 or 102% of capacity for hours then there is a small but real risk of a fire. You need to come up with a way to charge safely, on a dedicated or virtually dedicated circuit.

My climate isn't really "cold." I live in the Upper Hudson valley, but not very far North of Albany. We're getting plenty of heat waves in Summer, and Winters have gotten somewhat milder.

Enhancing heater output: use full recirculate when possible, and when not try 'partial' or 'auto' recirculate. You activate that by pressing and holding the recirculate button for two seconds AFTER the recirculate light is already on. The light will flash twice and then go out (and no "Fresh Air" message will appear on the screen). The system is now using 70% recirculated air and 30% fresh. You get more heat without fogging except in extreme damp. And, of course, turn off Eco mode for full heater output. Partial recirculate doesn't work in every mode, but on the 2018 Leaf it does work in Floor + Defrost mode, which is great.
 
Ah, I took "Upstate New York" to mean the 12-foot snow and otherwise horrible winter conditions I (from the Midwest) associate with points west of you. Although I would have thought that Albany was much the same, but proximity to Lake Ontario probably has something to do with it.

I was unaware of the other recirculate options. Thanks. I started out switching to recirculate as soon as the interior was comfortable - pretty quick - but I usually had problems with fogging and have lately given up on it. The auto setting for climate control (heat) was 64 F. to begin with when I got the car and I've left it there - works for me - but I haven't yet tried to see how low I can go. Not to mention what discernible benefit to this there might be. I can say that there has been a 4% increase in the charge a daily commute takes, from late fall to winter conditions, and the coldest is yet to come. How much of that is due to interior heating alone, I don't know. I do know that the heated seats have become more than the curious luxury they appeared to be (never had 'em before).

I'll have a talk with the roommate (who is also the landlord) about the circuit. If I set the regular timed charging for 2 AM - 7 AM, that should reduce the small risk considerably. But thanks for bringing that risk up. I had been wondering what the the significance of Nissan's own mention of "dedicated circuit" was.
 
Just to be clear, the car will draw 12 amperes at 120 volts so about 1440 watts. 12 amperes is the normal limit for continuous load on a 15-ampere circuit so make sure there is not much additional load on the circuit during the time the car is charging.
 
Among the locals here, "Upstate NY" is my region, including the Adirondack Park to my North. The vast flat, snowy expanse to our West is "Central NY" in the middle, and "Western NY" in the Buffalo region. It gets confusing because the definition often changes by the location of the person defining. ;-) Our weather is more like interior New England, albeit with fewer direct hits from coastal storms.

Nissan also warns against using extension cords, in part as CYA, but also because they do add some risk, especially if cheap and/or undersized. They also negate the heat sensing feature of the OEM charging cable that can avoid outlet fires. However, that being said, if you can run a high quality, heavy gauge (12 gauge) extension cord to a good, unused 15 or 20 amp circuit, that may be your best bet. Just make sure the cord is protected from damage, and it plugs snugly and fully into a good, non-worn outlet. Provide strain relief to keep it fully plugged in at a safe angle. Your landlord may be willing to add a dedicated short circuit with outlet near the main panel, especially if it keeps him from worrying about your car and his whatever sharing a circuit.
 
NoReleaf said:
I have calculated that a trip from the Chicago area to the Grand Rapids, Michigan area would take pleasant weather, some luck, and 18 hours total one way. 4 hours driving (max) and 14 hours sitting still and charging (zero fast charging en route possible).

I've used the EVgo DCFCs at the Lincoln Oasis. PlugShare also shows a DCFC at Bob Rohrman Nissan in Burns Harbor, although I've never used it. Using one of those, a 2018 should be able to make it to Grand Rapids from Wheaton with a single en-route charging session, no? Waze shows a distance of 200 miles and driving time of 3 hours.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Charging to 100% occasionally will balance the cells in the pack. I've seen my car's cell voltage readings 'wander off' and become less balanced, then return to balance after a 100% charge. It isn't clear how important it is to have all the cells at virtually the same voltage unless you really need every mile of range. Once a month should be enough for a balance charge.

You really do have a problem with your charging circuit. If it gets loaded passed capacity the breaker should trip (or fuse blow), but if it gets loaded to 99 or 100 or 102% of capacity for hours then there is a small but real risk of a fire. You need to come up with a way to charge safely, on a dedicated or virtually dedicated circuit.

My climate isn't really "cold." I live in the Upper Hudson valley, but not very far North of Albany. We're getting plenty of heat waves in Summer, and Winters have gotten somewhat milder.

Enhancing heater output: use full recirculate when possible, and when not try 'partial' or 'auto' recirculate. You activate that by pressing and holding the recirculate button for two seconds AFTER the recirculate light is already on. The light will flash twice and then go out (and no "Fresh Air" message will appear on the screen). The system is now using 70% recirculated air and 30% fresh. You get more heat without fogging except in extreme damp. And, of course, turn off Eco mode for full heater output. Partial recirculate doesn't work in every mode, but on the 2018 Leaf it does work in Floor + Defrost mode, which is great.


If you have power problems then look for a Lear L1 charger on eBay. The Lear at least as used in the Mercedes starts out at 8A but it is switchable to 12A. 8A will coexist with most stuff. The Leaf EVSE is fixed at 12A and that works for most. I only charge my B at 240V and 40A. A leaf with the L3 package will charge at L2 240V and 27.5A. That is much faster than the L1 trickle EVSE.
 
Thanks, Glenn. I am appreciative of both your and LeftieBiker's advice. Upon further investigation, I don't think I have a circuit problem. The circuit has a 20 amp fuse and there is nothing especially heavy duty on it, after all. Is the fact that the charging outlets themselves are of the GFCI variety at all relevant here, too? (Might as well ask while at it...) I would worry if the washer/dryer, water heater, or furnace were on the same circuit I charge on, but this is not the case. I just wasn't sure. I can tell you that the fuse box has a problem, though. Pretty much everything penciled in (and more than once) is wrong. I had to go around turning things on and flipping the breakers to figure things out.

One thing I would like to ask, though, is how can you tell if a house without any obvious 220V outlets... well, what I really mean to ask is whether some houses would actually require running different wire from the electric pole to the house just to have 220-240V (gak - which is it already??) power. A dumb question to smart people, I'm sure - plenty more where that came from. This house does have central AC, and I suppose I could crawl and squint to see what the water heater is plugged into, and the junk-filled garage (not my junk!) is also full of mysterious junction boxes and conduits, so I am starting to think that an L2 charger here is not out of the question. The home owner doesn't know, trust me. So I seek your wise counsel in advance of calling an electrician over just to have him/her tell me it isn't happening.
 
First, are you using the word "fuse" literally, to indicate an actual screw-it-in-and-replace-it-if-it-blows fuse, or as a synonym for "circuit breaker"? A 20 amp fused circuit might be better than a 15 amp one with a breaker - or not, depending on the condition of the wiring. GFCI outlets are fine, except for a slightly higher risk of false trips. Anyway, on to the voltage. If there are breakers, look for double-handled ones. If fuses, look for a big, block-like cartridge with wire handles to pull it out. Either of those indicates 240 volts.
 
I've used the EVgo DCFCs at the Lincoln Oasis. PlugShare also shows a DCFC at Bob Rohrman Nissan in Burns Harbor, although I've never used it. Using one of those, a 2018 should be able to make it to Grand Rapids from WhEaton with a single en-route charging session, no? Waze shows a distance of 200 miles and driving time of 3 hours.

Yes, the Lincoln Oasis DCFC's would be my first stop. I'm driving out there for a test - hope there won't be a line due to Christmas travel. Also hoping they work (some problems have been reported).

The actual destinations are in the Grand Rapids area (all the way out to Grand Haven). I would want to allow for at least 213 miles to get to a final destination where I am certain of being able to charge. My current expectations are that depending on conditions I might use 1% of charge for every 1.0 to 1.3 miles. I drove a trip-like 104 miles today and used 91% in moderate winter conditions, so let's call it 1.1 miles.

Start with 100%
43 miles from home to the Lincoln Oasis, 61%, charge there to 100% in 30-40 minutes (slower when close to full charge, right?), great
Then it gets dicey
(Bob Rohrman Nissan is a bit of a mystery (availability to the public, hours?). I contacted them, no reply. And it's only 27 miles up the road from the oasis. L2 charge for 90 minutes? Hmmm.)
Anyway, 80 miles from Lincoln Oasis to Benton Harbor where there are all sorts of L2 chargers, down to 27%, 5 hours to charge to 100%
90 miles to go, charger wasteland until Holland 56 miles hence (and do I want to charge there yet another hour?), could make it to GR with 10 miles to spare...

Not as bad as I thought, maybe. Still dicey. Very little margin for error. I would have to be thinking in terms of where the point of no return was if I needed to call it quits and head back home. Absolutely everything would depend on the Lincoln Oasis DCFC.
 
NoReleaf said:
Yep, two double-handled breakers, not including the main one.

Then there is 240V in the box.

The next question is what is the total amount of current the house wiring is capable of supplying. This can be determined by looking at the main breaker. It is probably 100 or 150 or 200 amps. If it isn't marked, I'd say it's time to call an electrician to take a look.

Another concern is whether or not there is physical space to add another double-handled breaker for the EVSE circuit. This probably isn't a deal-breaker since 4 single breakers can be combined into half-height single breakers to free up space for the new double-handle breaker. If all the breakers are half-height already that could be an issue but otherwise the first thing is to see how much total current the house can supply.
 
Then there is 240V in the box.

The next question is what is the total amount of current the house wiring is capable of supplying. This can be determined by looking at the main breaker. It is probably 100 or 150 or 200 amps. If it isn't marked, I'd say it's time to call an electrician to take a look.

Another concern is whether or not there is physical space to add another double-handled breaker for the EVSE circuit. This probably isn't a deal-breaker since 4 single breakers can be combined into half-height single breakers to free up space for the new double-handle breaker. If all the breakers are half-height already that could be an issue but otherwise the first thing is to see how much total current the house can supply.

Main double breaker says 100 100. Two other double breakers say 30 30. One of these must be for the AC, even if it's not the one indicated. The other other is a mystery. What is written on the inside of the box cover is clearly wrong (known from testing).

What is the height of a half-height breaker? There are only 16 breakers in the box. Space for 4 more at the bottom, if I understand what I am seeing correctly.
 
4 empty slots is plenty for the new double-handled 240V breaker. The half-height breakers put 2 separate breakers in one slot. They are 1/2 the height of a normal 120V breaker. Roughly 1/4 inch for the half-height vs 1/2 inch for the full height.

I'm guessing you have 100A service into the house. That's on the lower end of things but an electrician should be able to tell you how much more load you can safely add based on a description of what is there now. The AC is certainly 240V. Is the water heater electric as well? That would also be 240V and a large load. Others would be an electric range and an electric dryer and electric baseboard heat. Tally up all circuits in the house and then call an electrician to see if you can add a 27.5 amp, 240V load for the EVSE.
 
Thanks, Goldbrick. You've prepared me well to ask an electrician. FWIW, yes to electric water heater and electric dryer (not on the circuit used for the EVSE). Forced air gas furnace and gas range. No other heavy loads that I can think of. Oh, a space heater because of the ill-conceived central "heating." That's a bit of a load. Also not on the EVSE circuit.

I'm starting to think (again) that this house has all it can handle without expensive work, but I'll find out what it will cost to have someone come out and tell me that. :)
 
If the load is marginal you can put in a 20 amp 240 volt circuit and use a 16 amp 240 volt EVSE. Otherwise if a 30 amp 240 volt circuit will work, do that and use a 24 amp EVSE. Clipper Creek makes one for about $400, IIRC. You may have to practice "load balancing" by doing things like turning the central A/C off at midnight and charging the car then. You can also put the water heater on a timer, although I've had poor luck with those - the mechanical ones wear out and make noise, and the electronic ones just fail spontaneously.
 
^^^
The lowest I see Clipper Creek goes for a 240 volt EVSE is the LCS-15 (https://store.clippercreek.com/level2/level2-12-to-15) which is 12 amps at 208/240 volts and requires a 15 amp circuit.
 
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