LeftieBiker
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Re: Range anxiety..

Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:38 pm

The 50% drop comes from the real world driving experiences of quite a few people - including me. My 2013 SV had a 70 mile Summer range in 2016, and a worst case Winter range (in frigid weather, which is defined here as below 15F, when the heat pump stops making a significant contribution) of about 40 miles. I could get a few more miles by driving slowly, but we are assuming you wouldn't want to be driving 30MPH and arriving home again with the car about to stop from battery depletion. 60 miles is just too much to expect from a 24kwh Leaf when temps are in the teens (F) or colder. Yes, you'd have (just) enough range on most days, but again we assume that you won't have the option of using another car in frigid weather.
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BrockWI
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Re: Range anxiety..

Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:39 pm

Same here in the upper mid west. Today, for example, it was warm out, 16F or -9C and we started at 100%, drove 16 miles at highway speeds (70 mph) and the rest were city streets, totaling 48 miles and got home with 6%. That is pretty typical for us, when it gets normal cold, like 0F or -17C we skip the highway part and can go about that same 50 miles. Throw in snow and heat / defrost to see and you at 35 miles. Granted we are one bar down now, but that is real life. Oh all highway range today would be about 35 miles...
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GlennD
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Re: Range anxiety..

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:38 pm

For me when It gets blow 40 it is cold. I just can not imagine weather below freezing.
:
2013 Pearl White SL Premium
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Back to a Cirrus White 2017 B250e
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rcrw88
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Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Range anxiety..

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:42 pm

So the range chart is totally inaccurate for that 1% per 2 degrees Celsius drop? Bummer. I'd hate to buy another ICE or have to get a hybrid. Bleh.

NoReleaf
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Leaf Number: 305255
Location: Wheaton, Illinois, USA

Re: Range anxiety..

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:49 pm

Today, for example, it was warm out, 16F or -9C and we started at 100%, drove 16 miles at highway speeds (70 mph) and the rest were city streets, totaling 48 miles and got home with 6%.


That sounds crazy bad. All of you earlier adopters really paid some dues. Farther south, we have not seen sustained temperature in the teens yet, but when we do, if I start seeing a loss of more than 1% charge for every mile on my 19-mile commute, I'll be alarmed. Even if I suspect that it's going to happen.

For me when It gets blow 40 it 9s cold. I just can not imagine weather below freezing.


We'll tell you all about it. :) I grow less fond of cold and winter every year, and yet I still fear and dread oppressive heat even more. Much more. From what I can tell, the Leaf favors the same temperature range I do. So I guess we'll suffer together.
Last edited by NoReleaf on Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cwerdna
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Re: Range anxiety..

Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:51 pm

rcrw88 wrote:So the range chart is totally inaccurate for that 1% per 2 degrees Celsius drop? Bummer.

I didn't look at that until now. The problem is, you need to also take into account the increased power consumption from having to run the heater and/or defogger in addition to the increased rolling resistance of wet, slushy or snowy roads.

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LeftieBiker
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Re: Range anxiety..

Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:41 pm

Is that Tony's range chart? Did he really make no attempt to factor in heater use in cold temps? Yikes. Typically EV range estimates are determined in mild weather with little or no heater use, but we obviously need a chart that accounts for normal heater use, both for heatpump-equipped and resistance heat only EVs.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
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Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:38 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Is that Tony's range chart? Did he really make no attempt to factor in heater use in cold temps? Yikes. Typically EV range estimates are determined in mild weather with little or no heater use, but we obviously need a chart that accounts for normal heater use, both for heatpump-equipped and resistance heat only EVs.

There are some notes at the bottom of viewtopic.php?t=4295. The original 24 kWh range chart was intended for '11 and '12 Leafs. There was no hybrid heater until '13 SV and SL.

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LeftieBiker
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Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:41 am

I can see where it would be misunderstood. It talks about "temperature" and 'subtracting 1% for each 4F below 70F' but this is just about reduced battery performance, not heater usage. You also have to subtract 1.5kwh for heat for each hour driven. Had I known this hadn't been covered more thoroughly I would have tried to contribute.

Here's another anecdotal metric. The first Winter I drove my 2013 I was still working, and had a 42 mile round trip commute. The trip in was in the late evening, the trip home near but before dawn. Most of it was secondary roads and lower speed (40-45MPH) highway, but there was also some ( several miles) highway driving at 55MPH. Based on what I know now, my pack probably had ~95% remaining capacity - maybe a little less, as it was a Hot Summer and I didn't know about heat-related degradation. Anyway, I took fairly stiff measures on Frigid nights like that, at least by my standards, using a 12 volt heated fleece car blanket over my lap and legs while driving, accelerating slowly, never exceeding 55MPH. I set the heat to 69F, IIRC (I have health issues) and the blower on 1 or 2. I didn't know about partial recirculate then, so I switched Recirc back and forth to save heat and minimize fogging.

On the coldest commute it was in the Teens on the trip in, and fairly windy. The trip home was at about -5F, with stiff winds. I chickened out a bit and stopped for a 10 minute partial charge at a Nissan dealership. I noted how much charge was added. When I got home I had about 8 miles of indicated range left (I don't think the GOM blanked), having added about 6 miles of range at the dealership. So on that blustery, frigid night, my car had a range of 44 miles, with no real highway driving and less than adequate heat. I'd estimate a mostly highway trip at 55MPH would have yielded a range of about 35 miles under those conditions. Maybe less.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
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Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:03 am

LeftieBiker wrote:I can see where it would be misunderstood. It talks about "temperature" and 'subtracting 1% for each 4F below 70F' but this is just about reduced battery performance, not heater usage. You also have to subtract 1.5kwh for heat for each hour driven. Had I known this hadn't been covered more thoroughly I would have tried to contribute.

And, the 1.5 kWh for heat for each hour driven assumes 1.5 kWh consumption for heat each hour. It could be higher or lower.

Keep in mind Tony lives in the San Diego area which gets sooooo cold and it snows sooo much there... ;)

I thought he he hadn't had a Leaf in years since BC2BC (viewtopic.php?t=8879) as I talked to him in person about viewtopic.php?p=486597#p486597, which I found out had fallen thru. It got sold to someone else before he was able to pick it up. Our guess is that the seller realized the price was too low and got a better price from someone else.

However, I guess he did end up leasing viewtopic.php?p=500329#p500329.

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