daftKow
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:07 am
Delivery Date: 10 Jan 2019
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Range anxiety..

Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:29 am

I'm looking at a used Leaf in the GTA like OP, great responses in this thread and I'm learning a lot. I do have L2 charging at work, and there are usually a couple of spaces free. My commute is only 65km round trip, with approx. 35km being highway. I intend to charge daily at work (as well as home, of course). I do have access to an ICE vehicle in emergencies, and worse case scenario I'll WFH.

I wonder if I can get away with a 2011-12 or should I pony up more $ for a '13. Unfortunately, the prices have gone up recently (probably due to the scrapping of the provincial credit) and '13-14 are $15k+ meanwhile the '12s are close to $11k. $4k is a big difference ...

LeftieBiker
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Range anxiety..

Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:18 pm

You wouldn't enjoy the terrible heater in the 2011-2012 Leaf. Get a later '13 with heat pump.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

jjeff
Posts: 1768
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Range anxiety..

Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:33 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:You wouldn't enjoy the terrible heater in the 2011-2012 Leaf. Get a later '13 with heat pump.

+1, as an owner of both a '12 with its slow inadequate glycol heater and a '13S with it's quick to heat and better heating resistive heater, I personally wouldn't bother with an '11 or '12. I wouldn't necessarily overlook the generally much cheaper S model although the SV with it's heat pump would have advantages in all but single digits(F) and below temps.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Range anxiety..

Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:44 pm

The cheap '11 and '12 Leafs do have a use - in warm climates, where heat is more or less optional. Even then you'd have to add a switch to turn the heater off. That sounds like a joke, but it isn't...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Oilpan4
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Range anxiety..

Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:12 pm

I have a 2011 here in eastern newmexico.
It has the cold weather package and I need it about 2 or 3 weeks out of the winter.
To tell the difference a cold add on package leaf has the 5kw heater, the non cold package leaf only has a 3kw heater.
It gets warm air blowing in about 1 minute on recirculation, up to 2 or 3 minutes if using defrost.
If it got around 0F, having the 3kw heater would be pretty miserable.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: Range anxiety..

Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:45 am

This is the first mention I've seen of the base heater in the 2011/2012 having a lower output. I thought the cold weather package was the seat and steering wheel warmers, and the battery heater added, with the rest of the car staying the same.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 8765
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Range anxiety..

Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:48 am

LeftieBiker wrote:This is the first mention I've seen of the base heater in the 2011/2012 having a lower output. I thought the cold weather package was the seat and steering wheel warmers, and the battery heater added, with the rest of the car staying the same.

Ditto on all of the above.

Below is where I learned of the forced features that became standard on all US '12 to '15 Leafs on all trim levels:
https://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/19/201 ... equipment/
https://web.archive.org/web/20110613005 ... age-now-s/

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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SalisburySam
Gold Member
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 24 Feb 2012
Leaf Number: 018156
Location: Salisbury, NC

Re: Range anxiety..

Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:07 am

rcrw88 wrote:Hey,

I commute 97km a day (60 miles). I'm considering a 2015 with just under 30k. I don't have charging at work but I may get it in the future. I'm okay with topping up at public stations until I can charge at work.

Does this car work for me? Test driving it showed 12 bars and 142km on range. Carfax looked okay.


@LeftieBiker and @cwerdna have nailed the issues and a solid recommendation: no. Having a 2012 LEAF SL, I echo their rationale and recommendation.

I want to add something about the heat pump heater that I didn't see mentioned. Like any heat pump, it puts out more heat into the vehicle for lower energy expenditure for temperatures down to a certain level beyond which heat cannot be extracted from ambient air. I think that may be around 35ºF - 40ºF, but check other sources to be sure. Whatever that level is, temperatures colder than that trigger a resistance heating element that hugely sucks electrons. In Canada winters, I would expect to get a lot of heat from this latter method during most if not all the winter season. So if you are driving in such conditions and using the heater, go back to @LeftieBiker's 50% range loss as a great rule of thumb, and don't think acquiring a vehicle with the heat pump system will solve the range issue.
Nissan 2012 LEAF SL Super Black
13,100 miles, 10 bars showing, 72.35% SOH, 47.46 Ahr

Tesla Model 3 - Basic Black | Long Range | Premium Upgrade Package | Extended AutoPilot | Full Self-Driving
Delivered: July 19, 2018 | 6,200 miles

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 10606
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Range anxiety..

Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:32 pm

I want to add something about the heat pump heater that I didn't see mentioned. Like any heat pump, it puts out more heat into the vehicle for lower energy expenditure for temperatures down to a certain level beyond which heat cannot be extracted from ambient air. I think that may be around 35ºF - 40ºF, but check other sources to be sure. Whatever that level is, temperatures colder than that trigger a resistance heating element that hugely sucks electrons. In Canada winters, I would expect to get a lot of heat from this latter method during most if not all the winter season. So if you are driving in such conditions and using the heater, go back to @LeftieBiker's 50% range loss as a great rule of thumb, and don't think acquiring a vehicle with the heat pump system will solve the range issue.


The heat pump and the resistance heater work together, not sequentially, in general. The resistance (aka "PTC") heater helps the car warm up fast, then the heat pump largely takes over - until temps fall below freezing. It isn't as bad as you guessed, but below roughly 25F you will really notice extra range loss, and below about 15F, even though the heatpump is still active (to about 8F), the range will be very similar to an S with PTC heater only. So yes, in frigid temps there is little or no extra range with the heat pump, but in average Winter weather, most people will see more range with it at least much of the time.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

rogersleaf
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:50 pm
Delivery Date: 17 May 2014
Leaf Number: 337936
Location: Kent, Ohio

Re: Range anxiety..

Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:43 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
I want to add something about the heat pump heater that I didn't see mentioned. Like any heat pump, it puts out more heat into the vehicle for lower energy expenditure for temperatures down to a certain level beyond which heat cannot be extracted from ambient air. I think that may be around 35ºF - 40ºF, but check other sources to be sure. Whatever that level is, temperatures colder than that trigger a resistance heating element that hugely sucks electrons. In Canada winters, I would expect to get a lot of heat from this latter method during most if not all the winter season. So if you are driving in such conditions and using the heater, go back to @LeftieBiker's 50% range loss as a great rule of thumb, and don't think acquiring a vehicle with the heat pump system will solve the range issue.


The heat pump and the resistance heater work together, not sequentially, in general. The resistance (aka "PTC") heater helps the car warm up fast, then the heat pump largely takes over - until temps fall below freezing. It isn't as bad as you guessed, but below roughly 25F you will really notice extra range loss, and below about 15F, even though the heatpump is still active (to about 8F), the range will be very similar to an S with PTC heater only. So yes, in frigid temps there is little or no extra range with the heat pump, but in average Winter weather, most people will see more range with it at least much of the time.

I look at the heat pump as a tool to stretch the season when the car has enough range to get the job done. In my own case, was pushing the range to the car's design limit (2014 w/24KWh pack). When new, the car was good for @ 10 months the 1st year. After a couple of seasons, the battery had degraded slightly to where it was good for @ 8 months. The rest of the time it was a lump in a snow pile because it was useless for long distance commuting. Without a heat pump, those moderately cool-to-cold days would have meant a much shorter usable season. So, that heat pump is very appropriate for Canada or any cold northern usage.
2014 SV - Brilliant Silver - returned 1/2017 at end of lease.

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