really low performance and long charge time on new 2019 leaf

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carmicLEAF

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2019
Messages
7
Hello, I'm a new Leaf 2019 SV owner - purchased a couple of weeks ago in Maryland. I've scanned several posts, but am not finding the help I need. We decided to go for it and take a trip to VT for the holidays. We had to leave the car in NY because we had been on the road for 6 hours with only 220 miles under our belts. We were averaging 1 mile per battery percent. We were also averaging 70% charge at fast charge stations after being plugged in for ONE HOUR. Everything I've read said we would get 80% in 20-30 minutes at fast charge stations. At this rate, we drove 60-70 miles and then had to pull over and charge for an hour to get another 60-70 miles. I've not seen anyone else with this issue. When we returned, we plugged in at home (trickle charge), and after 2 days of being plugged in were at 88% battery capacity. The dealer blew us off when we suggested perhaps we had a lemon. We did have 5 people in the car, which I can understand would reduce the mileage by some degree, but by half? And why the extremely long charging times? I would never take this car on a trip over 60 miles, even if charging stations were available, because I would never have a spare hour to sit waiting to go another 60 miles. Super disappointed in the performance of this car. Anyone else have this problem or suggestions as to what's going on? Thanks.
 
More details, please. Speed traveled, ambient temp, heater set temp. A fully loaded Leaf doing 70+MPH in very cold temps with the heat blasting in D mode could perform as poorly as described. A full recharge using 120 volt L-1can take a couple of days.
 
Thanks. Yes, driving 65-70. Sometimes less as it was East Coast holiday travel on 95. Ambient temps in the 30s. Heat was actually not blasting. I did a quick low fan defrost every 5-10 minutes to keep windows from fogging on the way up as sun was out. Kept it at lowest fan, 66 degrees on the feet on the way home since we were driving in the middle of the night. Driving in D on Eco Mode with regen breaking the whole way.

But why would it take an hour to charge only 70% at DC Fast Chargers? I can’t even trust this car to get me to DC and back, which was one reason for purchasing.

Thank you.
 
Search "Rapidgate" +Nissan on Google. There is also some confusion about how much charge 30 minutes provides, as with the old 24kwh packs it would take the pack to 80%. With the 40kwh pack, though, it only adds about 90 miles of range or at most about 50%, depending on charger speed. The subsequent fast charges add less as the car restricts the charge rate to stop the pack from heating too much.

Going back to your rapid charge consumption: I suspect your tire pressures were low, and that along with the freeway speed and heavy load were the main contributors to the fast drain. 40psi and 65MPH should bring a marked improvement. I'm sure you aren't happy with this info...
 
carmicLEAF said:
Everything I've read said we would get 80% in 20-30 minutes at fast charge stations.
...
When we returned, we plugged in at home (trickle charge), and after 2 days of being plugged in were at 88% battery capacity.
On the first point, nope. No way on a 40 kWh Leaf. Nissan used to quote up to 80% in 30 minutes for the 24 kWh Leaf.

If you look at the specs tab of https://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/presskits/us-2018-nissan-leaf-press-kit, it says "Quick Charge 40 min to 80%".

As for trickle charge, that sounds about close. At 120 volts * 12 amps = 1,440 watts = 1.44 kW, which is how much is coming out of the wall. Probably about 1.1 kW makes it to the battery, so figure 1.1 kWh is added every hour. You have a 40 kWh battery (not all of that is usable). You should be able to get from empty to full, assuming it's not so cold the battery warmer has to turn on between in about ~36 to 40 hours.

To save time on going back and forth, we're going to need way more info. Please answer http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=275421#p275421 the best that you can.

Can you post Plugshare links to the DC chargers you used? Some of them may also be low output (e.g. 20 to 25 kW instead of 44+ kW). And yes, there's "Rapidgate" that might've bit you on your 2nd DC FC.
 
Thanks for all of this info. Really helpful. Found this article on #rapidgate which confirms what we experienced with charging: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/16/2018-leaf-vs-long-journeys-can-it-take-the-heat/ Would have been nice to know before trying to take this trip, or before buying the car. I am curious to try without the kids and luggage and for a shorter journey.

I did record all of our stops on PlugShare, but not sure how to share links to those stations here.

Thank you all again. I really appreciate the support.
 
carmicLEAF said:
I am curious to try without the kids and luggage and for a shorter journey.

I did record all of our stops on PlugShare, but not sure how to share links to those stations here.
The kids probably and luggage wouldn't have probably made that much of a difference. Slowing down so that you have more range per change, cutting back on heater usage (and definitely do use heated seats and steering wheel), inflating your tires properly and pre-heating on "shore power" (rather from the battery) can help. Also, if the battery's too cold, it won't DC charge very quickly either.

You can see the actual battery temps with Leaf Spy instead of the crap "graph" w/no numbers in the car.

What's very important to know is how many miles/kWh were you achieving for each leg of your journey. Reset it at the beginning of the trip. Reset it again at the start of the trip home. We can then point to whether the numbers are "normal" given your temperatures and speeds but we will likely need to also look at whether there's a net elevation gain or loss from point A to B.

Going too fast, running the heater too high, underinflated tires, etc. --> poor efficiency (in miles/kWh). And, of course, if there's a net elevation gain for one direction, the efficiency will be much lower than the other way.

Also, what was your starting state of charge before you DC charged and what did you end at? For fastest charging, you want to be as empty as possible and you want to not go too full (slower as you get fuller). The DC FCs you used may have displayed the charging rate in kW or just volts and amps. If the latter, just multiple to get watts (e.g. 400 volts * 50 amps = 20,000 watts = 20 kW). Some, unfortunately display neither. You can see also see the charge rate via Leaf Spy.

Just find your Plugshare locations via their web site and post URLs here. Examples:
https://www.plugshare.com/location/120112
https://www.plugshare.com/location/125929

You'll want to use the hamburger menu on the left to filter by CHAdeMO only, including payment required and currently in-use locations.
 
Cwerdna, if you read the thread again, you'll see that the heater use was actually quite light. This was speed, load, and maybe low tire pressures at work. Maybe headwinds, too...
 
cwerdna said:
What's very important to know is how many miles/kWh were you achieving for each leg of your journey.
He wrote 1 mile per battery percent. If that is accurate then 380 Wh/mile since 100% is 38 kWh usable battery capacity.
In addition to the reasons above for high consumption, OP should mention road conditions like rain, and wind.

At high consumption the battery heats up quickly and DCFC gets throttled down to ~ 20 kW. 380 Wh/mile * 65 mph = 24.7 kW so OP's observation that he spent about equal time charging and driving is correct. Bjorn Nyland documented the exact same experience here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpB1X1Ev99I

As Bjorn says at the end of his video and OP now probably agrees, the 40 kWh LEAF is best suited for local driving
 
SageBrush said:
cwerdna said:
What's very important to know is how many miles/kWh were you achieving for each leg of your journey.
He wrote 1 mile per battery percent. If that is accurate then 380 Wh/mile since 100% is 38 kWh usable battery capacity.
In addition to the reasons above for high consumption, OP should mention road conditions like rain.
If my math is right 380 Wh/mile --> 2.63 miles/kWh, which is really high consumption. I'd rather know what the car says than a guesstimate of 1%/mile. For me, w/my 11 bar 24 kWh Leaf, heck, sometimes it can be 2% per mile but it's actually not quite that bad... probably something like 1.6 to 1.8%/mile but those are almost wild guesses.

Bjorn puts out a ton of videos and I frankly don't have the time to watch most of them nor the interest. And, for me to watch a 32 minute video on a trip in a 40 kWh Leaf which I don't plan to buy or lease puts it very low in my queue. (Well, if I had way more time, then maybe I'd be more inclined to watch but I already have WAY too much to watch of stuff I'm interested in between my TiVo and streaming services.)

Skipping around, I can see he did get the battery pretty hot around the 26 minute mark w/the highest sensor showing 46.9 C (~116 F) which is pretty roasty when outside air temps are single digits C.
LeftieBiker said:
Cwerdna, if you read the thread again, you'll see that the heater use was actually quite light. This was speed, load, and maybe low tire pressures at work. Maybe headwinds, too...
Ahh yes, I missed part of it. although I'm unclear about his outbound leg of "not blasting". Some folks like using auto which I never use as I don't like decisions being made behind my back.
 
Heat was actually not blasting. I did a quick low fan defrost every 5-10 minutes to keep windows from fogging on the way up as sun was out. Kept it at lowest fan, 66 degrees on the feet on the way home since we were driving in the middle of the night. Driving in D on Eco Mode with regen breaking the whole way.

That doesn't read to me like the OP was using Auto, or any power-sucking setting.

Looking at this again, I'm wondering: does the OP's car have the Cold Weather Package...? Some people have been ripped off by dealers in colder climates who put cars on the lot without it, and then don't mention said fact. Since Nissan didn't used to pull this crap with the heated front seats and wheel, and the heatpump, buyers don't notice the lack, and so the above car may have resistance heat only and no heated seats or wheel....
 
My top four guesses were already mentioned but, tire pressure, no matter the next three. Then either rapidgage (battery to warm and not accepting a fast charge) coldgate (the battery to cold to accept a fast charge (although unlikely having been driven at highway speeds and multiple charges)) or also quite likely at slow "high speed" chargers. So many folks see them charging in the 20 kWh range no matter the battery condition, maybe it is designed that way, maybe it is a safe mode, maybe it is power sharing across chargers, but they don't put out the full capacity the car can accept. Imagine filling your ice with a straw and complaining it takes 20 minutes to add 10 gallons, it's not the cars fault, but that is what some "fast" chargers do.

Any or all of these things can lead to situations like this and it doesn't help the perception of EV's. I honestly think that was the primary reason Tesla built out it's own charging network, they know what cars will use them and and what each car can do and it just works instead of multiple companies installing chargers trying to work with multiple other companies making cars and they both keep tweaking things as they go. I do think eventually it will sort itself out, but not yet.
 
BrockWI said:
Any or all of these things can lead to situations like this and it doesn't help the perception of EV's .
This is not perception, and it is not EVs in general. It is the LEAF that does not have thermal management
 
cwerdna said:
I'd rather know what the car says than a guesstimate of 1%/mile.
Actually, it is a smart, simple and straightforward way to look at consumption so long as the denominator is over ... say 50%

E.g., if between charging stops he traveled 60 miles and the SoC dropped 60% then saying that average consumption is 1% per mile is more than reasonable. I'll be really surprised if it is off by more than 5%. If he took the average over a couple of charging cycles, even better.

Skipping around, I can see he did get the battery pretty hot around the 26 minute mark w/the highest sensor showing 46.9 C (~116 F) which is pretty roasty when outside air temps are single digits C.
That was the detail I also found most interesting. It occurred while he was driving at ~ 185 Wh/km IIRC, below OP's rate.

To summarize:
The lousy charging is rapidgate;
The high consumption/distance is probably multiple causes, some that may be chosen.

The two unfortunate details that can be extrapolated or already known are
1. Rapidgate is worse in warmer weather
2. These high temperatures are going to affect battery degradation
 
SageBrush said:
This is not perception, and it is not EVs in general. It is the LEAF that does not have thermal management

You are correct and I agree that this particular issue is with the Leaf (assuming it wasn't just that the car was connected to a 24 kWh "fast" charger), but my overall reaching point is it doesn't matter if this is a Leaf problem or any other perceived problem with any EV, it all gets lumped in to the general consensus that all EV's have problem "X". I know this and I would guess 90% of the folks here know know this, but the problem is 90% of the rest of the folks in the world don't understand this.
 
BrockWI said:
SageBrush said:
This is not perception, and it is not EVs in general. It is the LEAF that does not have thermal management

You are correct and I agree that this particular issue is with the Leaf (assuming it wasn't just that the car was connected to a 24 kWh "fast" charger), but my overall reaching point is it doesn't matter if this is a Leaf problem or any other perceived problem with any EV, it all gets lumped in to the general consensus that all EV's have problem "X". I know this and I would guess 90% of the folks here know know this, but the problem is 90% of the rest of the folks in the world don't understand this.
90% of the rest of the world are not buying EVs.
As for the group considering a LEAF, if they come to this forum wondering if the car is a good fit for them they should be told that the LEAF is an excellent ~ 75 mile r/t radius car even if 'fast' charging is required due to battery degradation and traffic/conditions/etc. Past that, and the compromises pile up.

Per OP, his 'research' was a marketing blurb that stated "80% charge in 30 minutes." :roll:
 
All fast chargers are not created equally. You need to be specific in where you stopped. There are 25 KW chargers out there sadly. The way you can tell the speed is the max amperage you are getting assuming your charge rate is not hampered by RapidGate which is rumored to be addressed on 2019 LEAFs but no widespread verification of that. So you need to see if you are starting the charge at 60 amps (25 KW) 100 amps (40 KW) or 120ish (50 KW) because only the 50 KW will get you close.

Assuming you left home with a full charge, there is probably the weather to deal with. Realize a 15 mph headwind is like driving 85 mph if you are doing 70 mph which doubles your power usage if driving 65...

FYI; You heard wrong. Your statement applies to 24 kwh LEAFs which wasn't right BTW. On 40 Kwh LEAFs, the official word is 45 minutes to 80%
 
I do know our tire pressure was around 36 psi - we had a low pressure warning when we retrieved the car back in NY and filled up to 36 psi (tire rating) to start the return trip.

Unfortunately, and I'm sure I will probably come across as an idiot, we did not record all of our data. We actually didn't even know we could change the menus on the screen behind the steering wheel. We did think it was stupid that we were just forced to look at a top front view of a pretend car. Please keep in mind we did just have the car for seven days prior to taking it on the road :) We recorded battery percent and miles, but not reliably. Therefore I cannot officially report miles/kWh for each leg, just the general take-away average of 1 hour charge = 75% battery capacity at beginning of journey and 1 hour charge = 55% at end of journey, with an average of 1 mile per battery percent the entire journey. Definitely not Nissan's marketed 30 minutes = 90 miles or 150 range for the 2019 40kWh car for any part of the journey - not even close.

I do know there was no rain or snow. I absolutely cannot stand the Auto setting on ac/heat, we had plenty of blankets and body heat to keep us warm. Cannot speak to headwinds.
We do not have heated seats or steering wheel :( - that only came with the SL model which we could not afford. Does that mean we don't have the Cold Weather Package? Dealer mentioned nothing of Cold Weather Package and needing this.

I also know that from 3 am to 4 am in the morning we were freezing in our car, only 53 miles away from home, waiting for the DC FC to take the battery from 13% to 55% to give us just enough kWh to get us home. A 3.5 hour trip turned to a 7.5 hour trip. This charger was stated to be a 100 A charger, but when we were using it, it was reading 52 A https://www.plugshare.com/location/134788

It sounds like there are multiple reasons this happened. I'd have to say that the idea RapidGate still exists on 2019 models and that Nissan's marketing department is completely misleading people and selling a car that doesn't exist in reality. But really no surprise there. We are also victims of VW's diesel scandal.

We are trying to totally reduce our carbon footprint (retrofitted a stone 1954 house to be net zero in Maryland - hoping to someday use Leaf as battery backup for house solar as they do in Europe) so we are bummed that we fell into the trap of consumer marketing and purchased a car that doesn't meet our goals. Unfortunately we purchased instead of leased because it was a lower monthly payment. My husband is looking into ways to extend the battery capacity - I'm sure that's in this forum somewhere.

Thanks again for all the help and resources.
 
You don't have to record all that. Let us know where you stopped and we can probably figure out the charger speeds ourselves.

Another thing you can do is check the battery temperature screen. It has 12 segments and the 6th segment provides the best chance for fastest charge. Since you got a low tire alert, your PSI was likely in the mid 20's. The alert is like the Oil light. By the time its on, its already too late.

**edit**

Could be a charger issue. If you look at list of check ins, you will see several others reporting low amperage including one at 39 amps @ 350ish volts (low SOC) soooo, looks like possibly best course would be to unplug and restart session?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
RapidGate which is rumored to be addressed on 2019 LEAFs
Hah !
We should have a friendly competition: "Who has the hottest battery ?" along with a a parallel competition "Whose battery died the quickest ?"
 
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