Considering Buying a Used Leaf - Wopper of a Drive

Hi - and thanks in advance for any thoughts...

I live in Arizona and commute from Peoria to Mesa every day. It is an insane ride, and I do it on a CTX 1300 every day, (motorcycle btw).

Well, last summery almost killed me (my company moved, thank you very much) otherwise it would be a mere 20 miles instead of 43. I can ride 9 months out of the year, but July through Sept is a killer; 120 to 135 degrees for a rider with the heat coming off the pavement. Without HOV it's a 2 hour commute. Death by heat? Or death by drive time? egads.

Now you folks can all stand around and laugh at what I'm going to ask...

If I purchase a 2014 or 2015 SV or SL model, at say around 30 to 40K miles:

1. Would I need to charge it at work to make it home? If so, could I do that on a 110? Or could I make the entire 86 miles. Maybe I could stop at the bars on the way home... haha. Bars should have charging stations, right? It makes sense.

2. Does anyone know whether or not I could get an HOV plate? I don't see Leaf's on the list. Weird. I see i3 BMW, Prius plug in, etc. No Leaf. That is annoying. I took a passenger ride in one when they first came out and loved it. I don't want a stinking i3 for gawd's sake. Prius plug in? Come on, that uses gas. WTH!

I was planning on getting a L2 charge station placed in my home as well.

Does anyone know if a program where two EV users who work on opposite sides of town borrow each other's chargers
Something to think about.

Again, thanks for your thoughts.

I strongly suggest that you snag a Volt while some are still on dealer lots. You DO NOT want a Leaf in that climate, regardless of year. The Volt has a cooled battery pack, and the Leaf does not. The Volt has a pack chemistry that resists heat well, while the Leaf has a pack that, possibly partially excepting the 2015, does not resist heat very well at all. What is your maximum range requirement? The Volt is enough like your bike that you would likely be happy with it: not great visibility or back seat room, but plenty of power and a 50 mile EV range*. And it's a lot more comfortable than a bike in that heat. If you can charge at work, even on 120 volts, you would have that 50 mile EV range available again for the ride home, more or less.

* To put this in perspective: a 24kwh Leaf with 11 capacity bars remaining would have maybe a 55-60 mile range with the A/C blasting. The Volt will almost meet that in EV mode, and still have the ability to drive home anyway.

no

Max range ... 43 miles 1 way. 86 total.

Okay LeftieBiker I'll look into the Volt. I see a Volt 2015 on Carvana for around $15k. I also see they are on the EV list for plates in AZ.
One of my co-workers had said something about those not being on the HOV plate list, but I see it on the PDF from DOT. On the other hand, they said the program was suspended... grrr.

Of course this is Arizona, who squandered the energy efficiency program for years by giving alt plates to vehicles like 2 ton trucks with a propane take alternative (idiots). So I might have to suffer not having HOV for the summer. But, I'd still be alive come October, so that's a positive!

Thanks for the feedback.

You're welcome. I'd hate to see another EV driver experience what happens to the Leaf packs in extreme heat. The other option might be a Prius Prime, but with that pack also not cooled (or possibly just partially cooled by the cabin air), it might well suffer a similar fate. AFAIK, short of getting a Tesla, the Volt and Bolt are the only good candidates for your climate.

One last thing: the EV range I'm quoting is for the the newest (and last) version of the Volt. Earlier Volts than about 2017 (?) have a bit less EV range - about 45 miles real world, IIRC. The newest ones will do 53 or so miles of EPA range. Still, for your situation, and especially if you have to climb real hills, the Volt will let you use the engine to climb them, saving electric range for the downhill and flats. The very earliest ones aren't the best liked, so look for at least a 2015 - again, if I remember correctly. (Correct me if I'm wrong, folks.)

PonderingLeafAZ said:

Max range ... 43 miles 1 way. 86 total.

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Forget about it. You wouldn't want to 86 miles on a single charge on a '14 or '15 Leaf with a new brand battery, let alone one that will be killed by AZ heat.

BTW, on Google Maps, I put in Peoria, AZ to Mesa and it gives me 3 route choices, ranging from 30.2 miles to 38.1 miles. The other direction is 32.9 to 40.9 miles. I'm guessing you have a bit more driving than what Google Maps are picking as the begin and end points.

If you can level 2 charge on both ends and you got a '15 which has the lizard pack, charging on both ends will be doable until the heat kills the battery by too much. You might luck out like http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=545757#p545757 and receive a free replacement before the 5 year/60K capacity warranty runs out. You could use it until the replacement is degraded too badly.

You can use https://www.plugshare.com/ to find charging stations. You'd want to look for J1772 and CHAdeMO (if the car has CHAdeMO). CHAdeMO charging will really heat up the battery and really get it cooking in the summer.

I have a Bolt now but it's unclear about the parameters as to when the thermal management can/will run. GM doesn't list it in the manual and it sounds like it's not in the service manual either. The '19 Bolt manual does say this twice:

Do not allow the vehicle to remain in
temperature extremes for long
periods without being driven or
plugged in. It is recommended that
the vehicle be plugged in when
temperatures are below 0 °C (32 °F)
and above 32 °C (90 °F) to
maximize high voltage battery life.

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So, obviously, battery thermal management can run when plugged in, charging or being driven. I've found some controversy as to whether it can run at all when not plugged in. Some have claimed that the the car's display has displayed a non-zero % of battery used for battery conditioning when left for awhile (in extreme temps, I think) when NOT plugged in, suggesting that TMS ran.

As others have said, this is a definite NO on the used Leaf.

If it were me, I'd get a 2018 Volt still on the lot. The dealers are giving them away right now. The place down the street from me has a couple for under $26k asking and you'd still be eligible for the $7500 federal tax credit after that. It's almost a cheap as the used one an you'd get a warranty and the 53 mile EV range which is barely less EV range a used Leaf would get you after a year in Arizona.

2018 Volt

But if you really want to go EV only I think a Tesla M3 or a Bolt would do the trick.

If it were me, I'd get a 2018 Volt still on the lot. The dealers are giving them away right now. The place down the street from me has a couple for under $26k asking and you'd still be eligible for the $7500 federal tax credit after that.

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How do we know that he'd qualify for the full $7500? There has to be at least that much tax liability, in one year - this one.

LeftieBiker said:

If it were me, I'd get a 2018 Volt still on the lot. The dealers are giving them away right now. The place down the street from me has a couple for under $26k asking and you'd still be eligible for the $7500 federal tax credit after that.

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How do we know that he'd qualify for the full $7500? There has to be at least that much tax liability, in one year - this one.

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I don't know that's why I said eligible. They need to figure that out for themselves.

golfcart said:

As others have said, this is a definite NO on the used Leaf.

If it were me, I'd get a 2018 Volt still on the lot. The dealers are giving them away right now. The place down the street from me has a couple for under $26k asking and you'd still be eligible for the $7500 federal tax credit after that. It's almost a cheap as the used one an you'd get a warranty and the 53 mile EV range which is barely less EV range a used Leaf would get you after a year in Arizona.

2018 Volt

But if you really want to go EV only I think a Tesla M3 or a Bolt would do the trick.

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He probably wants the HOV lane.
Is the Volt eligible in AZ ?

If you lived in California you could get a great deal on a lease and that would work. You might consider leasing from California if Az lease deals suck. VW eGolf leases here for just $3K down, $70 a month, and $2,500 back from the government. Leaf leases for $140 a month with $4.4k down.
I use to ride my bicycle in that Arizona heat. On the way home from work, I would jump into the shower with clothes and by the time I reached home 1.5 miles away, I was bone dry.

He probably wants the HOV lane.
Is the Volt eligible in AZ ?

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Yes, but the program is currently "suspended."

I keep hearing the program is suspended. I think I would need to send in a request and would be put in line... Not sure.
I see that the used Volts are fairly cheap, but people have been having issues with parts breaking, but GM fixed them...

In a way, everyone gets an advantage due to the tax benefits. The vehicles seem to drop in value immediately once the tax credit is cashed in (aka the car is sold). So the car loses that value as you drive it off the log, ala I get that value when I buy it used.

The first gen Volt was a good enough PHEV - especially for being all new - but the first redesign in...2015?...improved it. Check reliability reports for various years.

To clear up some misinformation:
1. All completely alternative fuel vehicles (electric, compressed natural gas, hydrogen) qualify for alternative fuel plates and HOV access (along with greatly reduced vehicle license tax). A total of 10,000 hybrid, plug-in hybrid, or combination fuel (propane and gasoline) vehicle plates are authorized for HOV access, but there is a waiting list (top name on list gets a chance for a plate when someone gives one up) so it is not likely that anyone will get an HOV plate for anything other than a true alternative fuel vehicle.
2. There is no chance to make the round trip commute without charging at work with a 24 kWh LEAF at normal carpool lane speeds even with a brand new battery. Therefore, I recommend that you consider longer-range EVs unless you have an assured way to charge fully at work. I agree that air conditioned HOV access is much better than the motorcycle during the summer--I don't think I have ridden my motorcycle to work during the summer since June 2011.

Edited to add: You would need L2 charging (208 or 240 volts) at home and at work to make this commute feasible with a 24 kWh LEAF. You could possibly get by with 120-volt charging at work if the car would be plugged in for at least 10 hours. There are some DCQC stations in Mesa, Scottsdale, Phoenix, and Peoria in case you needed to make side trips, but you would not want to depend upon them for every day use. The two main networks in this area are Blink and EVgo. They are about $7.00 to $9.00 per charge if you have memberships. Chargepoint has some L2 stations in the area. They also have a few DCQC stations with SAE CCS connectors (which the LEAF cannot use). Public charging L2 rates are about $1.20 to $2.40 per hour in this area.

Therefore, I recommend that you consider longer-range EVs unless you have an assured way to charge fully at work.

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I think that when you consider the desired price point (no more than about $15k), the required EV range, and range at speed the Volt is likely the only vehicle that comes close to filling the bill.

LeftieBiker said:

Therefore, I recommend that you consider longer-range EVs unless you have an assured way to charge fully at work.

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I think that when you consider the desired price point (no more than about $15k), the required EV range, and range at speed the Volt is likely the only vehicle that comes close to filling the bill.

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The Volt DOES NOT QUALIFY for HOV lane access unless you get one of only 10,000 hybrid plates issued statewide. As I said before, there is a waiting list so it is unlikely to get one of those plates (people can be on the waiting list for years without getting a plate). Therefore, the only realistic option is a longer-ranger EV or assured workplace charging.

I misunderstood. I thought that there was a waiting list for ALL HOV-qualified vehicles - I didn't get the hybrid-only aspect. That leaves the OP with a real dilemma, as he apparently can't afford an EV with the necessary range and TMS, and a PHEV with every other requirement gets him wait-listed for an HOV pass. Sorry about the misunderstanding. Still, what I wrote is actually still true: a used Volt is the only vehicle that I can think of that comes close to filling the bill. Have I overlooked a BEV with the needed range that is in the price range of the OP?

I am not aware of a longer-range EV within that price range, but there is no point in buying a Volt because there is virtually no chance of getting an HOV plate for it. There are many used car dealers and even a few new car dealers that do not understand the rules for the alternative fuel plates so don't feel bad that you misunderstood. I just wanted to make the distinction absolutely clear. A 30 kWh LEAF would work for the duration of the 100,000-mile capacity warranty with some workplace charging. A 2015 LEAF would even work until it dropped below 8 capacity bars with L2 charging at work--forget about anything older.