New Member, but not Leaf owner yet..

Hey everyone. Not my first post, but figured I would make one here anyway. My name is Steve, and I live in Norfolk, VA. Currently we have a Prius, and a Chevy Volt. The Volt has been a fantastic car, and that has kind of driven both mine and my wifes interest in adding the Leaf in to the mix.. Anymore we have come to the conclusion that the Volt/Prius are redundant with the Volt being the better of the 2. The Prius replaced our old truck (where it far exceeded our expectations). However with gas prices increasing, and the Middle East increasingly looking like it is becoming unstable we are kind of wanting to cut out only true tie left to the gas pump. So far it has been awesome with the Volt, and knowing exactly what I am going to pay to drive each and every month. It does have its short comings however, and as all of you know that is range. We do not go over often, as we have gotten really good at maximizing our distance into the mid 40's even with all 4 of us in the car.

I see a lot of people on here recommending that you get one with the cold weather package... This was not a big concern of mine as I do not have heated seats and all in the Volt. I put on a jacket, and survive. :lol: My question I guess is why? Coming from Florida to here I have not really even noticed much of a drop in the Volts range.. It has gone from 45-47 to around 40-42. Even with climate control usage I still get 35-37. The reason I say this is the Leaf I am looking at is a dealer demo. It is a 2011 SL, but has no cold weather package.. So a good question other than my one in the other thread about my charger is would purchasing this car be a mistake without it? My wife does not use climate control really in the Prius, so it is not a big concern of hers. The heated seats would be nice, but I do not want to pay full price for a 2012.

I thank you guys for your help. I have been a lurker here for a very long time. I was very interested in a Leaf before we bought our Volt, but being in the military we needed the flexibility of being able to drive the car over long distances, and I was transferring withing 5 months of us buying the car. Now I would have a few years to plot flat bedding my Leaf where it needs to go, so since I can get a good deal on this one is why I am debating jumping on it now. If the cold weather package is a must however I will pass, and wait.

Roadburner440 said:

It is a 2011 SL, but has no cold weather package.. So a good question other than my one in the other thread about my charger is would purchasing this car be a mistake without it? My wife does not use climate control really in the Prius, so it is not a big concern of hers. The heated seats would be nice, but I do not want to pay full price for a 2012.

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The battery on the Volt is temperature regulated; the LEAF is not, even with the CWP. It will likely never warm the battery even once in your neighborhood, as it comes on at -20C, and then only heats the battery to -10C with a 300watt heater.

If you don't want/need seat and steering wheel heaters, then you'll be fine without the CWP. What is different between the LEAF and other electric cars with active battery temperature management is that changes in temperature equal big changes in range.

You can add a seat heater at specialty shops for a few $100, or do it yourself for less.

As far as the CWP, out here in the midwest I would not have bought the car without it, we've visited the Delaware coast not so far from your area and can attest that it can get cold but perhaps it doesn't last quite as long as out here. As you'll see on the forum, cold temps; with or w/o the CWP affects range quite a bit. I would look more at what you're saving by getting a demo versus a '12; we're assuming you'll get the fed tax credit as it wasn't ever registered? Don't know if VA offers any as well?
If the car offered is a color you're OK with as well as model and you don't lose the fed credit that's all I would look at, the bottom line ... you're probably enough south to get by w/o the CWP.

The CWP has been really nice to have even 150 miles farther south than Norfolk.

copdoc said:

The CWP has been really nice to have even 150 miles farther south than Norfolk.

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I agree, but today was cold enough that we made extensive use of pre-heats (even when not plugged in) and climate control.

I must say if you have patience with it, it actually works very nicely. I've even started to use AUTO because I found that I liked the algorithm it uses to determine where to blow the air (basically down at the feet when it's warming the car and at feet/face when temperature is stable). It's also smart enough to NOT blow the fan until the thermal mass is warm, but once it is it automatically kicks on the fan. Others have complained that it only runs the fan up to 4 bars, but that's okay with me.

My strategy has been to pre-heat (especially when plugged in) and then the thermal mass is heated up the car can easily maintain the temp while driving in ECO mode. Otherwise I drive in D until it gets nice and warm and then switch to ECO.

Yes, range has been hurt, but for our needs (basically a 30 mile round trip + a few errands today) even an 80% charge was sufficient (although we did opportunity charge at Whole Foods for about 45 mins) all the while blasting the heat and pre-heating even when not plugged in.

The moral is, you can probably live without the CWP where you are. If your range is nicely within the 70-80 miles you can get in the winter and you're willing to drive in an efficient manner, you're probably fine. If you find that you're tight on range though, I'd look at adding seat warmers. They really are nice and reduce the need to keep the cabin hot.

I live in San Diego where morning temperatures can be as low as the 30's. I have a 2011 Leaf with out the heating package. The heating package is unnessary. The battery heater in the 2012 model only kicks in if your experiencing single didgets temperature. I would find the steering wheel heating and seat warmer equally unnessary

Roadburner440 said:

I was very interested in a Leaf before we bought our Volt, but being in the military we needed the flexibility of being able to drive the car over long distances, and I was transferring withing 5 months of us buying the car. Now I would have a few years to plot flat bedding my Leaf where it needs to go, so since I can get a good deal on this one is why I am debating jumping on it now. If the cold weather package is a must however I will pass, and wait.

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Thank you for your service to our nation.

We live up in the Southern California mountains where it gets cold and snows, and have been just fine without the Cold Weather Package. It doesn't get nearly cold enough here for us to need the battery heater, to keep the battery from freezing at -30°C.

If we are driving well within the range of the car, we do not hesitate to use the climate control. If you want to maximize the range of the car by not running climate control, just layer up. At least for us, it's no big deal.

I doubt you'll have issues. Much of the lost range due to cold can be made up for with a long preheat and/or keeping the garage above 45 degrees and keeping climate control use to a minimum. the coldest it's gotten here so far this winter is in the mid to upper 20's and i was able to maintain an 80+ mile range with conservative driving and topping off/preheating. For the times where it's particularly cold, you can buy a seat warmer that straps onto the seat and plugs into the cigarette lighter, they run on practically nothing and keep you quite comfortable.

I will attest to you guys that the pre-heating/thermal system in the Volt is not all it is meant to be... It seems to me that they could have designed it better. Since the battery/engine share a loop with the radiator and it uses a heat pump to warm the coolant it is sadly a viscious circle. If I pre-heat the car by remote starting it twice in the morning I may gain 1/2 miles of range. So anymore I do it just to defrost the windows.. Driving down the road though any mileage gained pre-heating is quickly lost once the cold air starts flowing through the radiator cooling the coolant down.. To keep pre-heating the coolant takes 7.7kwh's, so for those that know the Volt's battery has 10.3kwh usable can see where that goes. Granted even in the coldest of days I manage to squeek about 40-42 miles out of it. Was 25 degrees when I started this morning, and I went 20.6 miles with 25 still showing available on the battery (my range estimator is pretty accurate, and usually conservative, I have seen on here this is not so much the case with the Leaf)..

I myself do not hesitate to use climate control in the Volt. It is just the heating portion of it consumes a tremendous amount of power, and the fact it is self defeating with the warm coolant flowing through the radiator. So it is kind of you either leave it on or you don't. I have read the Leaf uses a resistance heater, so that should reduce the amount of power used considerably since it is not trying to heat coolant flowing through an open air radiator.

It certaintly never gets -20 here. It may feel like it. Especially on very cold mornings, but not quite. Certaintly makes it slightly more attractive to purchase. Still feeling around over in the problem forum looking at your guys issues a little more.. The Volt is not trouble free, but I have had 0 issues with mine. I am sure the Leaf is probably the same way with some people having problems and others not. Seems there are many more happy people than people with problems overall with both cars.

you may want to find out the answer to the issue of whether the dealer demo will qualify for the federal tax credit.
I dont know the answer to that one. folks here will have opinions on it.
you can start your research here:
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=206871,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks thank you... Unfortunately when I went to the Nissan dealer tonight they have kind of taken a rediculous stance on EV charging. So I have declined to purchase this particular car. I will be getting a Leaf at some point in the future however... I find it rediculous that they want to charge $10 to charge any EV.. My Volt at its worst takes $1.44 to charge, and a Leaf would only be somewhere around $2. I am fine with paying a 2 or 3 dollar fee, but $10 is rediculous. That is even assuming that I sit there for the entire 3.5 hours to charge my Volt, or 7 hours to charge the Leaf.

I know this is not indicative of all dealerships, and Nissan lets them set their policies individually as it should be since the dealership bought all of the equipment. My guess is they saw me and my family looking at the Leaf Saturday when they were closed when we were driving the Volt, and that must of rang a bell cause it says the policy is effective starting that day. I didn't even hook up as the Leaf was in the far corner of the lot away from the building. Not to mention we live not even 2 miles up the road, so I would rather charge in the comfort of my own home than sit drawing someone elses power. It just brought up in my mind how that guys girlfriend was denied a charge recently.. Either way I gave them a bad review on Plug Share, so hopefully they will be removed from the database as they say to report if people change their terms.

Roadburner440 said:

Thanks thank you... Unfortunately when I went to the Nissan dealer tonight they have kind of taken a rediculous stance on EV charging. So I have declined to purchase this particular car. I will be getting a Leaf at some point in the future however... I find it rediculous that they want to charge $10 to charge any EV.. My Volt at its worst takes $1.44 to charge, and a Leaf would only be somewhere around $2. I am fine with paying a 2 or 3 dollar fee, but $10 is rediculous. That is even assuming that I sit there for the entire 3.5 hours to charge my Volt, or 7 hours to charge the Leaf.

I know this is not indicative of all dealerships, and Nissan lets them set their policies individually as it should be since the dealership bought all of the equipment. My guess is they saw me and my family looking at the Leaf Saturday when they were closed when we were driving the Volt, and that must of rang a bell cause it says the policy is effective starting that day. I didn't even hook up as the Leaf was in the far corner of the lot away from the building. Not to mention we live not even 2 miles up the road, so I would rather charge in the comfort of my own home than sit drawing someone elses power. It just brought up in my mind how that guys girlfriend was denied a charge recently.. Either way I gave them a bad review on Plug Share, so hopefully they will be removed from the database as they say to report if people change their terms.

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I have not returned to the dealer I bought my Leaf from. No issues against them, but I simply haven't had the need. So I would say if they have the car you want, at the price you want, buy it and never look back.

I have over 12,000 miles on mine, and it was #567 in the country. No CWP, no problems, and no gas, which is what you need to cut the cord to. There are other dealers for updates, etc. etc. Having a Volt already might have me wait, but if the wife is on board to get the Leaf now, get the Leaf now lest she change her mind.

As for issues with the car - many of the complaints I have seen on this board are from people that haven't figured out the quirks of this kind of vehicle, and after posting and driving for a while no longer have issues with them, such as the DTE>GOM.

The Leaf has around 20KWH of usable power. The heater draws about 4KW, so if you use it on max for an hour the heater reduces the usable portion to 16KWH, so yes it can kill the range but is easy to plan for. In very cold weather you may only have 17 or 18KWH of usable energy in the battery, so you plan for that and you will know what to expect. I find that driving 65 on flat terrain takes close to 20KW to maintain the speed, giving you a range of 65 miles at 65 MPH, and a little power left over. If that works for you, get off the gas, and get a Leaf.

Roadburner440 said:

I will attest to you guys that the pre-heating/thermal system in the Volt is not all it is meant to be... It seems to me that they could have designed it better. Since the battery/engine share a loop with the radiator and it uses a heat pump to warm the coolant it is sadly a viscious circle.

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I'm sure the Volt has a thermostat to shut off flow to the radiator when its cold, plus it uses a couple of electric pumps to move coolant around as needed. Also, the Volt does not have a heat pump, it uses a resistive heater just like the Leaf, 4kw I believe.

Roadburner440 said:

Unfortunately when I went to the Nissan dealer tonight they have kind of taken a rediculous stance on EV charging. So I have declined to purchase this particular car.

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Good move, IMHO. I would not want to support that dealer with a sale. None of the Nissan dealers I have visited have ever charged me to plug in. A modest fee would be okay, but $10 is ridiculous.

A couple of dealers in Southern California have sold the LEAF at $2K below MSRP. Check with Fontana Nissan (they were my dealer). They would ship it to you for several hundred dollars, and might even have a 2011 left, thanks to their relatively high allotment of LEAFs. Even if you end up purchasing locally, you'd have some leverage in terms of negotiating.

Herm said:

Roadburner440 said:

I will attest to you guys that the pre-heating/thermal system in the Volt is not all it is meant to be... It seems to me that they could have designed it better. Since the battery/engine share a loop with the radiator and it uses a heat pump to warm the coolant it is sadly a viscious circle.

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I'm sure the Volt has a thermostat to shut off flow to the radiator when its cold, plus it uses a couple of electric pumps to move coolant around as needed. Also, the Volt does not have a heat pump, it uses a resistive heater just like the Leaf, 4kw I believe.

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It may, but it sure doesn't seem like it when it is in the 30's outside. The moment I go to turn off the heat it gets cold air coming through the vents mighty quick, and then it is back to using the heater. The Volt has a resistance heater for the front windshield defrost to the best of my knowledge. As that part of the system works well, and the rear window defrost works well. To the best of our knowledge it pulls between 6.5/7.7kwh at max draw. Which easily pulls my miles per kwh down to 1 or 2mi/kwh where normally without the heater I am anywhere from 4-4.5mi/kwh. I am still learning a lot about the car though even though we have had it for awhile. So now that you bring up the rest of the stuff I am unsure. The only valve I know about is a 3 way valve that has failed in a couple cars for the coolant, but not sure what exactly its purpose is.

I spent quite some time on here reading and searching last night. I see a lot of you do not return to the dealers you bought your Leaf from.. I must say it is ashame. For all the bad rap the Volt gets all dealers have been very kind, and awesome to say the least. I returned to my dealer of sale many times, and always got treated like the first. Even recieving free charges. So to read (and now see for myself) that some dealers charge or refuse to let Leaf's bought at other dealerships charge is kind of disturbing. Especially since I considered Toyota like service and approach to business. It just seems kind of hokey to me to buy the car even if their business practices are questionable. Seeing as they got their money, and that will be all they care about. There are a few others in the area I will call about today. There seem to be a number of orphaned 2011's, and 2012's within a 70 mile radius of me.

My plan with the heater would remain like the Volt.. to use only to defog the windows. Actually after being in Norfolk since November I have learned to just crack the driver/passenger windows and that keeps the windows from fogging. So I just got a nice jacket from Burlington Coat Factory, and all has been good.

17-18kwh of usable kwh is excellent! At most in our Volt we use about 16/17 in the entire day sometimes on the weekends going between 60-70 miles. So it would be awesome to not have to stop and recharge for say lunch, and just stay out and about. Not to mention I would use less power since we would not be coming home to charge (usually we do not do it as in wasting, we just plan our destinations so we cross the house in the middle to recharge/eat lunch). I am going to make some phone calls today and see. If not I will just keep my down payment money for the lease, and wait to see what comes around.

Roadburner440 said:

Thanks thank you... Unfortunately when I went to the Nissan dealer tonight they have kind of taken a rediculous stance on EV charging. So I have declined to purchase this particular car. I will be getting a Leaf at some point in the future however... I find it rediculous that they want to charge $10 to charge any EV.. My Volt at its worst takes $1.44 to charge, and a Leaf would only be somewhere around $2. I am fine with paying a 2 or 3 dollar fee, but $10 is rediculous. That is even assuming that I sit there for the entire 3.5 hours to charge my Volt, or 7 hours to charge the Leaf.

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this might be the first time i heard a dealer wanting to charge for this. now $10 for a QC i would do. you are looking at gaining potentially 60-80 miles in range in a decent amount of time for a price that is essentially not much more than it would cost for a gas fillup (subject to change since gas is starting to go up from a not so low price!)

now, i do see shaky dealer support for EV charging even with cars purchased from them. i recently went by my dealer to grab a charge and their charging station was under construction which it obviously was and i maybe unfairly judging them since i did not stay long enough to get details. i probably did not help my situation much since i removed all signs of my dealer (license plate frame, etc)

but...oh well. as far as an L2 charge. i have to think that multiple public charging options will be available in most areas simply because it is a new market where money can be made. i am guessing it will be like the early days of cellular service where competition was brisk, pricing aggressive and companies vying hard for your business