This --> <-- close to ordering a Leaf but have to ask

As topic I am very close to ordering a Leaf, for my commuter car so am researching all the breaks/incentives offered.

The main question/concern is do you have any options with the battery? As some probably know there old Rav4 EV uses NiMH and no memory degradation even today. Some even have 150k+ miles, so proven reliability.

I have also learned there has been advances to NiMH chemistry since then, and even greener since 100% recyclable.

I guess the question would be why isn't Nissan using these batteries or have they said anything about it? Perhaps a future option when building your car?

One other small thing, does the little solar panel option actually help? Thanks in advance!

my understanding is that Li-ion outperforms anything they've come up with in the NMH category. I have only heard of one bad egg so far with the Leaf. there are folks putting 150 miles a day on the Leaf with no reported battery loss in over a year. I expect the Leaf to out perform any previous electric vehicle. the solar panel is a fun gimmick but really is mostly just fluff. I would highly recommend the heated seats/steering wheel and the quick charging port.

just do it!

GaslessInSeattle said:

just do it!

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+1

It's difficult if not impossible to find anyone disappointed in choosing the Leaf. If you still have reservations, consider leasing. In three years, or sooner if you decide to, you can buy out the car and it doesn't cost much more than if you bought it to begin with. Cheap insurance against not liking it or if there are problems (unlikely) or if you want to move up to the latest and greatest. Also removes all questions about getting the $7500 credit.

LTLFTcomposite said:

GaslessInSeattle said:

just do it!

Click to expand...

+1

It's difficult if not impossible to find anyone disappointed in choosing the Leaf. If you still have reservations, consider leasing. In three years, or sooner if you decide to, you can buy out the car and it doesn't cost much more than if you bought it to begin with. Cheap insurance against not liking it or if there are problems (unlikely) or if you want to move up to the latest and greatest. Also removes all questions about getting the $7500 credit.

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This is a good option I have not considered! Thanks for that!

I agree. I regret deciding to buy instead of leasing. I found out that in my current tax situation I will not be able to claim more than about $30 of the $7,500 tax credit! When you lease, you get the entire tax credit applied toward the lease thanks to Nissan being able to claim it for themselves and passing it on to you.

Another thing: The Leaf does have certain quirks about it, that some people don't mind at all, and others can't stand. So, I would suggest taking a thorough test drive and really getting a feel for all the car's controls and modes of operation before committing to buy. If you find anything awkward, step back and consider whether it might be better to wait another year or two for a different electric vehicle from another manufacturer.

Sc0rPs said:

The main question/concern is do you have any options with the battery? As some probably know there old Rav4 EV uses NiMH and no memory degradation even today. Some even have 150k+ miles, so proven reliability.

I have also learned there has been advances to NiMH chemistry since then, and even greener since 100% recyclable.

I guess the question would be why isn't Nissan using these batteries or have they said anything about it?

Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I tend to ignore the conspiracy theories. BEVs were and still are no major threat to the oil industry, so there's little benefit in suppressing old battery technology. Fact is there were other large format NiMH batteries out there that don't use Ovonic's patents, and there still are, and no auto maker wants them for use in BEVs. The reason Lithium based batteries are so attractive is due to better energy density and favorable cost in the future with higher volume manufacturing. Although I think I heard a while back that Nilar was going to start producing a more energy dense and less expensive bi polar NiMH battery. That was supposed to happen last month. Not sure where they are on that now.

I'm concerned about the LEAFs battery, but probably no more concerned than RAV4-EV owners were about their batteries. We can't stick with old technology in this industry simply because it's proven, because even the new technology doesn't have the energy density that we need to make BEVs go mainstream. We have to keep up with battery advancements, otherwise BEVs will never take off. But that's somewhat scary to some people.

kubel said:

I'm concerned about the LEAFs battery, but probably no more concerned than RAV4-EV owners were about their batteries. We can't stick with old technology in this industry simply because it's proven, because even the new technology doesn't have the energy density that we need to make BEVs go mainstream. We have to keep up with battery advancements, otherwise BEVs will never take off. But that's somewhat scary to some people.

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What range do you think is necessary for BEVs to go mainstream (and why?)

Lithium-ion batteries severly outperform NiMH batteries. Lithium-ion have greater capacity for lower weight and can discharge at a faster rate when needed (i.e. when accelerating). NiMH batteries don't have as much energy desnsity so to get the same amount of kWh you would need a heavier pack, probably about 50% heavier. And with the added weight, the range would drop.

In comparison to other specs besides the energy density: NiMH have a stronger energy loss than Li-ion at high temperatures. This is one of the reasons the original EV1 in arizona still used lead acid vs the NiMH it california. NiMH has a greater energy loss when sitting idle. While this energy drain has been improved, Li-ions are superior at maintaining a charge when not in use. Finally, NiMH recharges slower. You can recharge faster, but you risk greater damage to the battery cells, shortening the life span. Li-ion has no issues with charging at a faster rate.

Granted, with improvements and tweaking the battery cells, NiMH can overcome many of the problems, but it will still have less power density than Li-ions. Li-ions are just, in every way, better. Although if you want greater capacity you could use Silver-Zinc batteries (these are the same batteries used in the apollo missions) since, so far, these have the greatest power density. Unfortunately, the life of these batteries are extremely poor as artifacts build up and prevent recharging in just a few cycles on the original ones. But who knows, they could solve that problem and replace Li-ion batteries.

I don't want to go too far off topic---but. The original Ovanic batteries in the EV1 and the S10E were very sensitive to temperature which required an active cooling system (the A/C system was used to cool the battery during charging and possibly during operation). This lead to a lot of energy expended just to keep the battery within it's thermal limit. The Rav4 EV used the Panasonic EV 95 battery, which by nature of design changes, was not as thermally active as the Ovanic. This allowed for air cooling vs the active system used in the Ovanic product. I owned both the S10E and the Rav4 EV and as far as I am concerned, I hope the Li-Po Battery in my LEAF will operate as well as the NiMH battery in the Rav4. Not interested in conspiricy, however, the limitations on the format size for NiMH batteries after the lawsuit is interesting if your company is really interested in promoting your patented technology. It is also of interest that Hybrid cars (Honda Insight and Toyota Prius) were exempted from having to comply with the results of the lawsuit.

Another thing: The Leaf does have certain quirks about it, that some people don't mind at all, and others can't stand.

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Quirks, such as....?

Quirk Example:
1. Having to push a button to unlock the door(s).
2. Having to push a button to get the Carwings "Accept/Reject" screen off the Nav screen.
3. It does not come in Green, or in Fall colors.
4. No spare tire
5. No jack to raise a tire to repair it.
6. It is too quiet.
7. Overall, it is so good that the SO takes over using it.
8. ... <your own>

lpickup said:

What range do you think is necessary for BEVs to go mainstream (and why?)

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300 mile range.
Quick charges in 10 minutes.
Quick charge stations every few miles or so.

You and I laugh at that, but you and I aren't typical drivers. People want freedom, and not just people, but our entire economy is dependent on long range capability and very few quick fill ups.

kubel said:

lpickup said:

What range do you think is necessary for BEVs to go mainstream (and why?)

Click to expand...

300 mile range.
Quick charges in 10 minutes.
Quick charge stations every few miles or so.

You and I laugh at that, but you and I aren't typical drivers. People want freedom, and not just people, but our entire economy is dependent on long range capability and very few quick fill ups.

Click to expand...

The sad thing is, most people don't even need that. They just want the perception of freedom (which, more sadly, applies to more than just their choice of personal transportation.)

I think the EV market will have to grow against this notion that you MUST HAVE a vehicle that is capable of much more than you truly need. As the market grows, and as advocates like many on this forums and elsewhere continue to speak out and answer questions, public perception will shift.

That said, 140 miles of range and I'm extremely confident I'd never ever have a second thought about range. I've only had round trips in excess of 50 miles twice in the past six months, one was ~70 miles one-way (hence 140) and is the farthest I've driven in over a decade. I think their range is already adequate for mainstream adoption, the public just needs to realize it.
=Smidge=

lpickup said:

kubel said:

I'm concerned about the LEAFs battery, but probably no more concerned than RAV4-EV owners were about their batteries. We can't stick with old technology in this industry simply because it's proven, because even the new technology doesn't have the energy density that we need to make BEVs go mainstream. We have to keep up with battery advancements, otherwise BEVs will never take off. But that's somewhat scary to some people.

Click to expand...

What range do you think is necessary for BEVs to go mainstream (and why?)

Click to expand...

I dont think the key item is the range issue for most, but rather the so-called break-even point on pay back.
at least, that is what most auto writers focus on.
range is an item that most folks realize is a small issue in their daily lives.

kubel said:

I tend to ignore the conspiracy theories. BEVs were and still are no major threat to the oil industry, so there's little benefit in suppressing old battery technology. Fact is there were other large format NiMH batteries out there that don't use Ovonic's patents, and there still are, and no auto maker wants them for use in BEVs. The reason Lithium based batteries are so attractive is due to better energy density and favorable cost in the future with higher volume manufacturing. Although I think I heard a while back that Nilar was going to start producing a more energy dense and less expensive bi polar NiMH battery. That was supposed to happen last month. Not sure where they are on that now.

I'm concerned about the LEAFs battery, but probably no more concerned than RAV4-EV owners were about their batteries. We can't stick with old technology in this industry simply because it's proven, because even the new technology doesn't have the energy density that we need to make BEVs go mainstream. We have to keep up with battery advancements, otherwise BEVs will never take off. But that's somewhat scary to some people.

Click to expand...

I agree with what your saying, but the fact is also NiMH has made advances as well, a much more matured battery that's safe to transport on planes (yes, Li-Ion are not allowed to be transported by air). I really don't care which battery is in the vehicle as long it is the best, and from what I understand Li-ion chemistry immediately starts to degrade the moment it is made when NiMH does not. Not really thrilled about the fact the late 90 EVs also had better range to current.

Mitsubishi's EV is just bleh, while the Volt despite the 'range extender' offers only 50 mile all electric. Also, if I understand correctly the Volt carries twice the batteries needed and will only deplete to 50% of capacity before the back up kicks in? If true, sounds like NiMH would have been the smarter choice...

Despite all that I have scheduled some test drives this weekend.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything happens with NiMH and EVs once the patents expire.

kubel said:

lpickup said:

What range do you think is necessary for BEVs to go mainstream (and why?)

Click to expand...

300 mile range.
Quick charges in 10 minutes.
Quick charge stations every few miles or so.

You and I laugh at that, but you and I aren't typical drivers.

Click to expand...

That's why I also asked WHY. I know people think they need 300 mile range, but that's when I ask if they fill up their tank every single day. I'm not saying there aren't people that routinely need that much range. But the vast majority don't. So instead of placing the blame on the batteries and saying we NEED 300 mile range batteries (and those other items you mention), I think what we NEED is to change perception, and that is FAR less expensive than actually developing a 300 mile battery.

kubel said:

People want freedom

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Great! So why do they feel they need to be beholden to big oil and the tricks of the gas industry? Alright, I realize this is a weaker argument. But again it's mostly a perception thing. I've heard plenty of people state that they can't afford to fill their car with gas. So do they really have freedom there? If they could travel 5X as far for the same amount of money than they do in their gas vehicle, doesn't that ultimately give them more freedom to travel?

kubel said:

and not just people, but our entire economy is dependent on long range capability and very few quick fill ups.

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Absolutely! I'm not expecting airplanes, ships, trains, long-haul trucks and other vehicles that business depends on to electrify. And that's not a requirement, in my opinion, for EVs to go mainstream.

lpickup said:

I'm not expecting airplanes, ships, trains, long-haul trucks and other vehicles that business depends on to electrify.

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I'd like the trains to electrify. And while you're at it, triple their speed, and connect to light rail in urban areas so you can go places without always having to take a car. Start with airports and stadiums.

BTW what did the OP decide? Is he going for it?

Smidge204 said:

kubel said:

lpickup said:

What range do you think is necessary for BEVs to go mainstream (and why?)

Click to expand...

300 mile range.
Quick charges in 10 minutes.
Quick charge stations every few miles or so.

You and I laugh at that, but you and I aren't typical drivers. People want freedom, and not just people, but our entire economy is dependent on long range capability and very few quick fill ups.

Click to expand...

The sad thing is, most people don't even need that. They just want the perception of freedom (which, more sadly, applies to more than just their choice of personal transportation.)

I think the EV market will have to grow against this notion that you MUST HAVE a vehicle that is capable of much more than you truly need. As the market grows, and as advocates like many on this forums and elsewhere continue to speak out and answer questions, public perception will shift.

That said, 140 miles of range and I'm extremely confident I'd never ever have a second thought about range. I've only had round trips in excess of 50 miles twice in the past six months, one was ~70 miles one-way (hence 140) and is the farthest I've driven in over a decade. I think their range is already adequate for mainstream adoption, the public just needs to realize it.
=Smidge=

Click to expand...

Adoption will be driven by both range and cost. The greater the range the greater the flexibility, and the less need for pre-planning. Assuming that battery prices come down significantly, I think the breakpoints will be as follows:

100 mile worst-case range: 0.5-1.0% of vehicles sold.
150 miles worst-case range: 1-5% of vehicles sold (i.e. similar to hybrids, and dependent on fuel prices staying at or above $4/gal.)
225 miles worst-case range: significant %, perhaps as much as 25-50%.
300+ miles worst-case range:Virtually all light duty private vehicles will be BEVs.

Currently, only the Tesla S with the medium or large battery can meet the first requirement, the large battery version can meet the second, and no soon-to-be available BEV can meet the third or fourth. Deploying a battery with a faster recharge capability or else having a battery exchange infrastructure would limit the need for very long on-board range. Barring a very high level of battery pack standardisation among manufacturers, I don't think large-scale battery exchange will be economically viable for anything other than fleet use. At a minimum it would take agreement among (at least) national consortiums to use no more than 3-5 standardised packs, i.e. voltage/capacity/form factor/weight/connections/CG/charging characteristics etc. I don't see this happening any time soon, when they can't even agree on an L3 standard.