Should I buy a Leaf - Please help with my fears

Please help me decide if I should buy a Leaf. I have been pulling my hair. I read most of this Forum.

First, something about me:

I live in Front Range Colorado (Boulder) and own a Subaru Outback 3.0 R LL Bean with every option.

and my Wife drives a Lexus Hybrid SUV.

We love our cars and they are trouble free. Both of them are great while driving to Skiing.

We generally ski in an area that is about 30 miles from our house. Obviously, you drive through hilly terrain.

So, I would have to rely on my Leaf atleast 4-6 times a year when my wife cannot loan her SUV to me.

So, my question is can I depend on my Leaf for 4-6 weekends a year. Obviously, I can rent a car, but I would rather avoid
that hassle.

I am assuming that I can handle my day to day driving needs. Also, I will be picking up kids from School

Would Leaf's range degrade drastically in Cold Weather. We get a few less than 20 degree days in Jan/Feb. Otherwise, it is Sunny
and around 30 - 55 degrees during Winter.

Any Feedback will be appreciated. I just don't want give up on it before gathering some feedback from actual owners.

If you are from Front Range Colorado , I would love to talk with you for few minutes.

Thank you for your help.

Current Leaf range in winter is not great. That was one of the reasons I gave up on it and went with Volt, just couldn't live with <50 mile range in winter month. If you absolutely want to go with Leaf wait for 2013 model which is right around the corner it will have improvements that should be beneficial for colder states.

you dont provide enough info to answer the question. you say its 30 miles one way to skiing? guessing there is a lot of elevation changes here. i am shocked that your temp ranges are not all that different from mine. i would have thought it would be much colder for you.

but to generalize; you could make it. simply drive slow enough to do it. i would hold speeds to under 60 and keep in mind, what goes up will come down which means you can get a lot of range back when you go down the hill but you will need to learn to manage regen to take full advantage. its not hard.

i find my winter range to run from 70-75 miles and yes i do slow down a bit in winter to stretch that but no lower than about 55 mph. one thing to keep in mind, a very small increase in speed on the freeway usually equates to a large drop in range

another thing to think about, i have a 2011. each MY after that gets better for cold weather driving

Will you have option to charge at ski location? If so, should be ok. If not, closer call but managing for 1st few trips to see how much wiggle room you have should cover it.

jpa2825 said:

Will you have option to charge at ski location? If so, should be ok. If not, closer call but managing for 1st few trips to see how much wiggle room you have should cover it.

Click to expand...

that is another good point. most will have 120 volt charging outside and it may simply be a question of talking to the manager.

60 miles round trip in cold with "contaminated" highways (with ice, snow, etc) and perhaps wind, with obvious elevation changes is a challenge, to be sure.

The real question is, "How much effort are you willing to invest to make this work?"

Here's how I would handle it.

Step 1: Preheat the car interior while plugged in, AND heat that battery. That heated battery will hold an amazing amount of heat energy for hours. Don't use "oil pan heaters" to do it, unless you can adjust the temperature below 100F.

Step 2: Don't count on there being anything to plug into at the destination. If you base the whole plan on that, you'll likely be disappointed, even if the is power/charger/EVSE there. It can be broken, blocked by inconsiderate oil burner cars, or actually in use by other EV drivers. I'm going to guess that there's nothing to aid charging enroute.

Step 3: Park where you think the sun will have the highest likelihood of heating the car when you return from skiing.

Step 4: Don't use the heater, probably even the 2013 "heat pump". They all take lots of energy. But, you preheated the car, and it has seat and steering wheel heaters that you will use (and they work well).

Step 5: Consider a Honda/Yamaha 2000 watt "briefcase" generator in the trunk for the return preheat and some charging, plus it will come in very handy if you're coming up short, or get caught in a storm, etc. Those little generators work great for camping, home freezer / fridge power in a black out, etc. For the LEAF, you will need to place a 100k ohm 1/2 watt resistor in a plug to "spoof" the GCFI circuit. Search on the site for how simple and easy this is to do.

Step 6: A cold battery will not accept regeneration or charging as fast as a warm one. Don't assume a cold battery will act like a warm one. Cars with high rolling resistant snow tires won't go as far as the original Low Rolling Resistant tires.

Step 7: Be prepared for contingencies, like waiting for snow plows, traffic, detours, etc.

Please give us the name of the town you're starting from, and the ski resort, so we can judge other factors, like elevation.

In addition to Tony's recommendations, I'd say wait a few months and consider a Ford Focus EV once it's available in Denver, as it comes with a thermal management system that will heat your battery to the proper temp while it's being charged, minimizing your range loss for the trip to the ski area (it will still lose capacity due to cold on the way back unless you can plug it in at the ski area). Assuming, of course, that the Focus otherwise meets your needs (i.e. you don't need the greater room of the Leaf, or QC capability).

http://www.plugincars.com/ford-focus-electric/review" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Or get the Toyota Rav4 due out any day now. You will have to buy it in California and have it shipped. It has the battery (40kWh) from the Tesla Model S, thermal battery management, plenty of ground clearance and plenty of room for ski stuff.

About $50,800 plus taxes, fees and shipping to your door. Like almost all the LEAF competition, no quick charge, but it does have a 10kW charger onboard (about 30 miles per hour of charging). The batteries on these cars, like the Tesla, are likely to be rock solid.

TonyWilliams said:

Or get the Toyota Rav4 due out any day now. You will have to buy it in California and have it shipped. It has a much battery (40kWh) from the Tesla Model S, thermal battery management, plenty of ground clearance and plenty of room for ski stuff.

About $50,800 plus taxes, fees and shipping to your door.

Click to expand...

Well, that would be my first recommendation, except for the hassle. But lease any of them, as batteries are likely to improve a fair amount in the next few years.

GRA said:

Well, that would be my first recommendation, except for the hassle. But lease any of them, as batteries are likely to improve a fair amount in the next few years.

Click to expand...

The hassle to buy lasts a few days, maybe. The EV smile from the right car for the job.... a lifetime.

TonyWilliams said:

GRA said:

Well, that would be my first recommendation, except for the hassle. But lease any of them, as batteries are likely to improve a fair amount in the next few years.

Click to expand...

The hassle to buy lasts a few days, maybe. The EV smile from the right car for the job.... a lifetime.

Click to expand...

True, but there's also the little matter of the extra $10-$15k for the RAV4 over the Leaf or Focus. If it's affordable, then by all means.

Oh, given the OP's reported low temps, if you do decide to go with a Leaf I would slightly disagree with Tony and definitely wait for a 2013. I think the efficiency of the heat pump heater should give you considerably better range spring/fall, and at least some in winter (every little bit will help you); the 6.6kW charger may or may not be a big deal for you.

I was last in Boulder and Rocky Mountain N.P. in Oct. '92 so my memory is a bit hazy, but ISTR lows in the 20s or even the teens in the park then; that's consistent with what I'd see at that altitude in the Sierra that time of the year, so I'm surprised that your likely winter temps are so mild. How low is this ski area you go to?

GRA said:

I would slightly disagree with Tony and definitely wait for a 2013.

Click to expand...

You're not disagreeing, because I didn't recommend a 2012 over 2013, or vice versa. Either gets the same range with the heater off. I suspect it will be more expensive for a 2013 over the 2012 either with the optional 6.6kW charger, or with the stock 3.3kW one.

So, buy now and save gas and get a cheaper car, or wait until spring 2013 (when ski season is winding down) to get the more expensive car with more efficient heater and "North American styling cues".

It doesnt sound like he needs a 6.6kW charger.

TonyWilliams said:

GRA said:

I would slightly disagree with Tony and definitely wait for a 2013.

Click to expand...

You're not disagreeing, because I didn't recommend a 2012 over 2013, or vice versa. Either gets the same range with the heater off.

Click to expand...

Yeah, poor wording on my part, my point was to recommend the 2013 because I think he can benefit from the heater much of the year. Maybe not on that ski trip where he may be cutting it too fine, but he (and we) won't know until the 2013s are out and someone tests one. At this point, I think the 2013s are close enough that anyone who might get significant benefit from any of the new features should wait; for those where the features aren't going to make any difference and they can get a great deal on a 2012, go for it.

And who knows, maybe Nissan will give people a little more capacity too, ala Volt. I'm not expecting it, but it would be nice if Nissan gave people a pleasant surprise for a change.

GRA said:

And who knows, maybe Nissan will give people a little more capacity too, ala Volt. I'm not expecting it, but it would be nice if Nissan gave people a pleasant surprise for a change.

Click to expand...

Mmmmm.... Using the same chemistry battery, that's already max'd out (93% available vice Volt with 60%) and 4.1 volts per cell (not much increase in energy stored above that voltage), and no room to add cells equals....

NO WAY IN HELL.

Edit: Sure, marketing probably has that 250km battery, but engineering didn't do anything to get it. P.T. Barnum had a saying, I think.....

To give you a data point, I live at 6100' elevation and my workplace, 23 miles away, is down at about 1200' elevation. I don't always use the LEAF for the whole commute; I often bicycle to work and partway home, leaving the LEAF with my wife for the day. But when I do use the LEAF, if I leave work with about 75% charge (my current "80%" due to battery degradation), then I can make it home with 20% remaining if I'm careful.

TonyWilliams said:

GRA said:

And who knows, maybe Nissan will give people a little more capacity too, ala Volt. I'm not expecting it, but it would be nice if Nissan gave people a pleasant surprise for a change.

Click to expand...

Mmmmm.... Using the same chemistry battery, that's already max'd out (93% available vice Volt with 60%) and 4.1 volts per cell (not much increase in energy stored above that voltage), and no room to add cells equals....

NO WAY IN HELL.

Edit: Sure, marketing probably has that 250km battery, but engineering didn't do anything to get it. P.T. Barnum had a saying, I think.....

Click to expand...

I was thinking more a minor chemistry tweak that give a slight extra miles/capacity like what Chevy and LG Chem have done, rather than some super duper improvement.
Now, back to the regularly scheduled topic.

30 miles up a mountain will use a lot of energy. It takes about 20kw's of power to maintain 30-40 MPH when ascending such a steep grade. While the Leaf has plenty of power to go up the mountain faster, it does have a limited amount of power that you can utilize - around 20KWH is what is usable when it is new and the temps are normal.

The range estimator will not be able to help soothe your anxiety on a trip like this. You will want to monitor your power usage on the way up. On the way down, you should have no issues at all, whether or not you get a charge at the top of the mountain.

With the heavy weight of the Leaf the snow and ice will not be an issue, but the resistance it will provide will "cost" you energy, so again, monitor the use and make adjustments if needed. This is not a car that will leave you stranded, if you get to the low battery warning and don't think you will make it to the top (Say after 4 years and the battery has lost some capacity) you can turn around and gain enough energy to make it back home. Not fun, but you can grab another vehicle and only be out a couple of hours. If it happens in the first three years, Nissan will pay for the tow, so no worries there.

I think you should buy the Leaf now. If it meets your needs everyday, the four times a year trips should not be what has you pulling your hair out. You want it, go buy it. The joy of electric driving is here now, why wait even one more day? Do you love the oil companies that much?

I go camping a few times a year. Burning gas to go there hurts, but at least I am not doing it every single day.

TonyWilliams said:

Or get the Toyota Rav4 due out any day now. You will have to buy it in California and have it shipped. It has the battery (40kWh) from the Tesla Model S, thermal battery management, plenty of ground clearance and plenty of room for ski stuff.

About $50,800 plus taxes, fees and shipping to your door. Like almost all the LEAF competition, no quick charge, but it does have a 10kW charger onboard (about 30 miles per hour of charging). The batteries on these cars, like the Tesla, are likely to be rock solid.

Click to expand...

The sales manager at the Toyota dealer near my house (where there is a QC), said that Colorado is also getting the Rav4 EV. May or may not be true, but I would definitely check it out if I lived there.

As for this snowy mountain business in a Leaf, it's just not worth the stress. I think the Leaf is a fine car for commuting in temperate climates, but it's not a car to routinely stretch to its limits during winter, especially if you like your car to be warm inside, unless you like being cold and worried about getting stuck. If you are a hypermiler already, then go for it, but if you want to drive the Leaf like a normal car to your ski mountain, then I would say get a Volt. You can be electric most of the time, and you won't be stuck on the side of a snowy mountain, waiting for Nissan to send you a tow truck.

Thank you for everyone who took time to respond. The suggestions provided are really helpful.

Here are some more details about situation.

I will be driving uphill 20 miles and 10 miles on a flat terrain when I drive from my home to the ski area.
I live at 5560 ft. and the ski hill is at 9200 ft.
I am only expecting to use Leaf 4-6 times when I cannot borrow my wife's SUV.

As for the temperatures, our day time temps to be 35 to 50 for the most part. But, the mornings
can get to 10. It is usually sunny even with low temps.

I hope this adds some more context.

Please offer suggestions to help me decide.

Here is my post from 1/22/12. I take my LEAF from 750' to 4200' or 5500' with no charging yet available at the ski resorts. Typically I drive it from 45-50 mph to 4500' (28 miles)where it chills
during the day when I ski, then I go home (28 miles) and go from 4-3 bars to 2 bars.


Mt. Hood, Oregon hill climb today, 3736' up. I did 100% charge with preheat ending with to 1.5-2 bars left (19 on the GOM) from 30-24 degree temperatures, all on snow, total miles was 52.2. I started in Odell, OR, 725' elevation and went up to Teacup Lake Nordic ski area to cross country ski, 4461'. I drove between 35-50 mph going up and got there with four bars remaining and 13 miles on the GOM. I have 17 lb. wheels, with General Altimax Artic, siped and studded tires filled to recommended psi. I coasted back down the mountain, reaching up to 53 mph at times, but mainly was going about 40-45 mph. I used my heated seats (wet okale) and only used the defrost at 60 degrees when the windshield needed it, both ways. Fun experiment. We have had snow and ice since last Wednesday and this car performs very well with the low center of gravity, traction motor, and studs. I could not be happier with the handling of the LEAF in this winter weather.