GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:11 pm

Via ABG, a similarly negative view of the Clarity BEV as has been expressed here by many:
The Honda Clarity [B]EV doesn't make any sense
A lousy value proposition, especially compared with its own twin.
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/04/13/hond ... ork-nyias/

At this year's New York Auto Show, Honda launched the Clarity Fuel Cell's counterparts, the Clarity Electric and Clarity Plug-In Hybrid. It makes sense that Honda would expand its alternative-fuel model to encompass electricity, since hydrogen isn't a sure thing. What doesn't make sense is why Honda would enter the EV game with such an uncompetitive vehicle.

When compared with current electric cars in the marketplace, the Clarity Electric comes up short in both range and price. The Honda will go only 80 miles on a charge, and the company will charge you a price in the mid-$30,000s for the privilege. Both the Nissan Leaf and Kia Soul EV outperform the Clarity Electric with ranges of 107 and 93 miles respectively, and price tags in the low-$30,000 realm. But the bigger issue is the Chevrolet Bolt EV, which offers a whopping 238 miles for just over $37,000. (Note: All given prices are before incentives). The Clarity is a pitiful value proposition from a range standpoint. . . .

The Clarity Electric comes across as a truly half-hearted attempt at making a full EV. Even the Electric's availability seems reluctant, as it will only be sold in California and Oregon to begin. Perhaps Honda itself realizes that the Clarity Electric isn't good enough to take on the EV establishment. And if that's the case, we have to ask, why did Honda even bother with the car in the first place? Let's hope subsequent Clarity Electrics will be more compelling.

There's some praise for its size and luxury based on the FCEV's interior, but they then point to the PHEV as offering the same without the limitations.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:41 pm

Via GCC:
Toyota to begin demonstration tests of Mirai fuel cell vehicle in China
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/04 ... mirai.html

Toyota Motor Corporation will send two Mirai fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) to China in October 2017 to conduct demonstration tests in the country. Coinciding with the start of these tests, Toyota will also establish a hydrogen station at TMEC (Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing China), its Chinese research and development base.

Toyota is participating in the Accelerating the Development and Commercialization of Fuel Cell Vehicles in China project, and will carry out demonstration tests on the Mirai FCV for three years between 2017 and 2020. The projects is funded by the United Nations Development Project and the Global Environment Facility in order to provide support to developing countries. Started in 2003, the project has initiated FC bus services in China, Brazil, Mexico, Egypt, and India. The third phase is scheduled to expand the scope of the project to include passenger vehicles.

Toyota will conduct research into vehicle performance within the environment in China, research into the quality of China’s hydrogen, as well as a variety of quality and durability evaluations. . . .

There are presently five hydrogen stations in China which are centered in the metropolitan regions of Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou. The hydrogen station which Toyota plans to construct at TMEC will be the first of its kind in Changshu.

Toyota must have gotten a waiver from the Chinese government for the Mirai, as it uses a Type 4 (fully-wrapped composite fuel tank with plastic liner) which AFAIA remains banned in China (as discussed upthread).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:22 pm

Boom, boom, boom... Toyota changing course to EVs for regulatory compliance in China:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos ... SKBN17L1VC

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:15 pm

Via GCC:
EMS develops new H2 storage system targeting refueling stations
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/04 ... 0-ems.html

EMS, a German-Dutch engineering company with roots in the nuclear industry, is developing a new hydrogen storage system. The EMS storage solution, designed to store more than 1000 kg H2 at a nominal working pressure of 500 bar, contains high-strength lightweight composite (CFRP) pressure vessels (type 4) which will be embedded in standard containers to serve at H2 fueling stations. . . .

There's a rendering. Presumably they'd need an extra stage of compression/storage to kick it up to 825 BAR to fuel 700 Bar FCEVs, but maybe this is only intended for trucks and buses, which typically use 350 BAR storage. The Press release lacks such details.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:54 pm

Here's GCR's take on the same Reuter's story Tony linked a couple of posts back, which largely matches my evaluation of Toyota's rationale:
Why Toyota's 'agonizing' U-turn toward electric cars? Because China says so
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/111 ... na-says-so

. . . Every company selling in China is now developing them [BEVs], and Toyota has to follow suit, no matter how little it likes the prospect. So despite statements by its chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada, known as the "father of the Prius," that an electric vehicle was useful "only as a neighborhood errands car," the company has no choice if it's to succeed in the world's largest car market.

Just don't make the mistake of believing that Toyota has gotten religion on the merits of all-electric cars. It hasn't, at least based on the statements of its executives at the Shanghai show.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

ydnas7
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:44 pm

Toyota has been proactively fighting against EVs since early 2007 (Toyota VS Better Place in Israel)

wow, thats a decade
Global plugin vehicle fleet has progressed quite nicely, HFCVs still a joke.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:05 pm

Via IEVS:
Is Toyota's hydrogen fuel-cell fervor foolish, or foresighted? (with charts)
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109836_is-toyotas-hydrogen-fuel-cell-fervor-foolish-or-foresighted-with-charts
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

ydnas7
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:48 pm

GRA wrote:Via IEVS:
Is Toyota's hydrogen fuel-cell fervor foolish, or foresighted? (with charts)
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109836_is-toyotas-hydrogen-fuel-cell-fervor-foolish-or-foresighted-with-charts


Passenger Vehicle Hydrogen fuel cell continue their irrelevance.

Its actually quite a step, H2 enthusiasts publicly double checking that Toyota is still in the game.

What happens once Toyota sells a real Toyota EV with a Toyota badge? Will anyone fund the hydrogen infrastructure then?

(Ans, no they won't)


http://www.firstelementfuel.com/
they sell something called 'True Zero'

i kinda feel sad for these guys, they trying to do solve a problem, but are barking up the wrong tree.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:33 pm

ydnas7 wrote:
GRA wrote:Via IEVS:
Is Toyota's hydrogen fuel-cell fervor foolish, or foresighted? (with charts)
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109836_is-toyotas-hydrogen-fuel-cell-fervor-foolish-or-foresighted-with-charts


Passenger Vehicle Hydrogen fuel cell continue their irrelevance.

Its actually quite a step, H2 enthusiasts publicly double checking that Toyota is still in the game.

Actually, he describes himself as an EV supporter, with 'EV' applying to all types. Like me, he believes in following multiple approaches to ZEVs, in order to transition off fossil fuels as quickly as possible.

ydnas7 wrote:What happens once Toyota sells a real Toyota EV with a Toyota badge? Will anyone fund the hydrogen infrastructure then?

(Ans, no they won't)

You're entitled to your opinion.


ydnas7 wrote:http://www.firstelementfuel.com/
they sell something called 'True Zero'

i kinda feel sad for these guys, they trying to do solve a problem, but are barking up the wrong tree.

Might as well feel sad for all the battery and EV starttups that have failed, then. Whether First Element ultimately succeeds or fails remains to be seen, but at the moment they have the largest network of stations in California (building of which was subsidized by Toyota), including the one closest to me. They also have by far the highest-priced H2 in the state ($16.78/kg. locally), but as they have little competition in most areas and Toyota and Honda are paying for the fuel, that will continue for at least another year or two.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6974
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:36 pm

Via GCC:
Toyota begins trial operation of hybrid power generation system: SOFCs plus micro turbines
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/04 ... oyota.html

Toyota Motor Corporation has begun trial operations of the pressurized combined power generation system which has been installed at Motomachi Plant in Toyota City, Aichi Prefecture. The hybrid power generation system combines the use of solid oxide fuel cells (SOFCs) and micro gas turbines. The trial operations will utilize the system as an internal power generation facility, with the aim of testing and evaluating the system’s energy efficiency, performance, and durability.

The hybrid power generation system uses hydrogen and carbon monoxide which have been extracted by reforming natural gas, and employs fuel cell technology and micro gas turbine in its two-stage power generation mechanism, with a rated output of 250 kW. In addition, it has a cogeneration system (combined heat and power) that uses the waste heat produced in power generation.

This hybrid system achieves high generating efficiency (55%) with its two-stage power generation system, and also increases overall efficiency (65%) by using the cogeneration system. For this reason, Toyota has positioned it as an effective technology that would help to realize the goal of achieving a low-carbon society. The electricity and waste heat generated is used within Motomachi Plant. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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