Levenkay
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:43 pm

RegGuheert wrote:But will they run continuously? We don't know. They will certainly have downtime for maintenance, like all industrial equipment, but it's not even clear that running them will be cost-effective for Shell. Perhaps Shell has arrangements with their electricity supplier to get the electricity cheaply if they allow them to shut them down during times when the grid is overloaded.
Hmm.. Rheinland, Rheinland... That's Germany, isn't it? The country that's been in the news frequently the past two years or so because they have such a surplus that they PAY big consumers of electricity to soak up their excess electrical power? Where big, big loads that one wouldn't mind turning on and off fairly quickly (like hydrolyzers) would be desirable?

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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:01 pm

Levenkay wrote:Hmm.. Rheinland, Rheinland... That's Germany, isn't it? The country that's been in the news frequently the past two years or so because they have such a surplus that they PAY big consumers of electricity to soak up their excess electrical power? Where big, big loads that one wouldn't mind turning on and off fairly quickly (like hydrolyzers) would be desirable?
It seems you are missing the point, so I will be more clear.

Choose one of the following undesirable options:

1) If Shell runs their 10-MW electrolyzer continuously, it will produce less than 1% of their hydrogen needs and will consume the equivalent electricity of 10,000 homes (my previous calculation was incorrect). During the vast majority of the time when the renewable generators are NOT curtailed, this electrolyzer will be powered by fossil fuels.
or 2) If Shell runs this electrolyzer ONLY when renewable generators would have been curtailed, then Shell will produce WAY less than 1% (0.02$)of their needs and the cost of the hydrogen produced by this electrolyzer, both in terms of Euros and in terms of damage to the environment, will even higher than it already is when running full-tilt.
RegGuheert
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2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:25 pm

Via GCC:
London police trialing Suzuki Burgman fuel cell scooters; first trial outside of Japan
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170905-suzuki.html

. . . The hydrogen fuel cell scooters will be used by Police Community Support Officers within the Roads and Transport Policing Command and will be based at Alperton Deployment Centre. The trial will last for 18 months and will enable assessment of the suitability of the fuel cell scooters for various roles. On a broader scale the trial will help The Metropolitan Police to understand where this clean technology could be adopted across its fleet in the future.

The Burgman Fuel Cell scooters are not yet commercially available. The MPS is the only organization outside of Japan that Suzuki has approached to undertake such a trial. These scooters will be fitted with telematics to enable Suzuki to gather data on the scooters systems to assist further development. . . .

The trial is being run at no cost to the Met, with the loan of the vehicles from Suzuki Motor Corporation. The maintenance and fuel costs will be met by a collaborative project which is being part funded by the Advanced Propulsion Centre (APC). Lead partner of this project is British fuel cell technology company Intelligent Energy in association with Suzuki GB and Cenex.

This trial complements a Metropolitan Police Service decision made in late 2015 to stop mandating diesel fuel for its fleet. Since then, it has been actively exploring ways to hybridize and electrify its fleet in addition to exploring other new technologies such as hydrogen. This is enabling The Metropolitan Police Service to make great strides towards its ambition of procuring 550 vehicles as zero or ultra-low emission by 2020 while ensuring a 24 x 7 fleet operational capability. . . .

The scooters will be located at a central London location and will be re-fueled using a private re-fueling station provided by Fuel Cell Systems. This mobile re-fuelling facility enables the scooters to be deployed elsewhere, or on deployment for long periods, as required.

The Suzuki Burgman Fuel Cell has a range of around 120 km (75 miles) before refueling is required. . . .

Spec sheet for the Burgmann is here: http://www.intelligent-energy.com/uploads/accompanying_files/Burgman_case_study.pdf
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:22 pm

Via GCC:
New TOTAL hydrogen filling station in Karlsruhe produces H2 onsite with steam electrolysis and solar energy
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170907-total.html

A new TOTAL hydrogen filling station on Karlsruhe’s Südtangente ring-road was commissioned on Wednesday. The German Federal Ministry of Transport and Digital Infrastructure approved grants of approx. €970,000 (US$1.2 million) for the hydrogen facility under its National Innovation Program for Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technology (NIP).

This H2 filling station—the eleventh in the TOTAL network and the tenth in the German federal state of Baden-Württemberg—is differentiated by producing hydrogen on-site through steam electrolysis, using electricity generated by a solar array.

This hydrogen filling station marks the first time that a steam electrolysis plant in flexible operation is used for the production of hydrogen. . .
.


Also GCC:
DOE to award $10.2M to 16 solid oxide fuel cell projects
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170907-sofc.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:40 pm

Motor Trend magazine did a six month review of the Toyota H2 car:

KEY STATS ABOUT OUR TIME WITH A TOYOTA MIRAI:

Total distance: 10,497 miles
Total days: 179
Total H2: 171.249 kg
Total H2 cost: $2,703 (26 cents per mile)
Average fuel economy: 61.3 miles per kg (mpk)/62.5 mpg-e
EPA official mpk: 65.9
Average (mean) new range estimate after refueling: 272 miles (low: 254; high: 295)
Average (mean) total driving range (actual miles driven plus indicated range remaining): 279 miles (low: 239; high: 314)

*******

Any EV costs pennies per mile to operate. Typically about 4 cents per mile (12 cent per kWh average US COST divided by 3 miles per kWh consumption rate.

This is the singular reason why hydrogen cars will fail, and fail BIGLY. Toyota didn't even bother to bring a hrgrogen car or display for the largest National Drive Electric Week event in the USA, here in sunny San Diego, California USA.

Neither did any of the other two hydrogen players, Honda and Hyundai.

Well, at least they have lots and lots of government good will (called tax payer funds) to fund issues in the future. I'm sure the hydrogen lobby will milk it well.

So, what is the standard hydrogen proponent counter to high cost?

1) My hydrogen car gets "free" hydrogen from Toyota, Honda or Hyundai. Of course, that's only subsidized hydrogen, and it won't last forever.

2) Hydrogen will magically get cheaper. But, will the price of hydrogen decrease? The answer is probably not. The reason why it will not decrease is because hydrogen is already being produced on a truly massive scale as is. People that say that hydrogen will decrease in price drastically when there are 100,000 or some other low number of hydrogen cars present are willfully ignorant that hydrogen is used for ammonia product and oil refining.

Currently over 51 million metric tons of hydrogen is used worldwide. Converting to kg, that is 51,000,000,000 kg. The Mirai, the “best selling” hydrogen car would use on average 220 kg a year, so even if 100,000 fuel cell cars magically appeared, that would be 0.042% of the worldwide hydrogen usage. Needless to say, if such a small increase in demand or production can affect the price drastically, there’s a big problem (or Bigly, for you Trump voters).

Also, to further illustrate the point, if hydrogen can be sold cheaper than it is being made at an oil refinery, methanol plant or an ammonia plant, guess what happens? Economics takes over. As an ammonia producer, if there is a hydrogen station selling hydrogen cheaper than the ammonia producer can make hydrogen, they would simply buy up all the hydrogen from that station. They would "hard pipe" to the station and while in the process of hard piping, they’d send interns and drivers to purchase all the hydrogen from that low cost hydrogen station.

3) Hydrogen will be made from green resources, which means water and electricity. The simple, sad reality is that whatever electricity is used to make hydrogen from water, that same electricity can be far more cost efficiently in any EV. Not just 5-10% more efficient... 300-500% more efficient.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:46 am

http://www.electricvehiclesresearch.com ... -logistics

The companies that together have sunk billions into fuel cell vehicles used to argue that the heavy things like buses and trucks could only be electrified with fuel cell. However, China is soon to celebrate 200,000 large pure electric buses in regular use and volume production of fuel cell buses has yet to begin.

What about trucks? Here there is little incentive to reduce emissions for these because they spend little or no time in city centers and operators are unlikely to pay a premium for green credentials beyond what the tightening regulations require. Volvo Group, the huge truck maker, says it is almost all about total cost of ownership of a truck. Nevertheless, IDTechEx finds that, here too, it is pure electric and conventional hybrid power trains that are in the lead though less dramatically because change is slower.

As with a minority of large buses, various forms of top up charging permit the battery to be downsized by 80% releasing more space for cargo and reducing the pure electric vehicle cost penalty. IDTechEx reports on industrial and commercial vehicles and on fuel cell vehicles tell more.

More than 600 trucks arrive at the Porsche plant in Leipzig every day as part of the company's logistics network. During the trial, the first truck with a purely electric drive is being used between the logistics centre and the assembly supply centre.

This action is part of the eJIT research project, which involves Porsche Leipzig as well as IAV GmbH, Schnellecke Logistics, Volkswagen Sachsen and the Saxony Automotive Supplier Network. The aim of the pilot project is to test the use of electric trucks under real conditions in multi-shift operation at automotive plants.

The electric truck is charged during the planned waiting times while it is being loaded at the supply centre. The battery is charged while the process is ongoing using a 150-kW fast charger, enabling the truck to be used in three-shift operation. Once fully charged, the truck has a range of around 70 kilometres and a top speed of 85 kilometres per hour. Alongside the project at Porsche Leipzig, a second electric truck is being tested by Volkswagen Sachsen at the Zwickau plant. The eJIT project is intended to run for a total of three years

A second stage of the project is scheduled for the coming year, with the Porsche plant in Leipzig set to operate a highly automated vehicle from 2018 onwards. The eJIT project is intended to run for a total of three years. The project partners IAV GmbH, Porsche Leipzig, Schnellecke Logistics, Volkswagen Sachsen and the Saxony Automotive Supplier Network have been working together since early 2016 on the electrification of trucks, with the aim of reducing noise and emissions at automotive sites.

The project is part of the technology programme "Information and communication technology for electric mobility III: Integrating commercial e-vehicles in logistics, energy, and mobility infrastructure", which is run by the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy (BMWi) and is a continuation of the previous research into the commercial use of electric mobility.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:09 am

Really cool info, Tony. Thanks for sharing!

This really isn't the right thread for it though. The only reason to post it in this thread is to rub hydrogen's nose in it. Not that anyone here is advocating or pushing for a FCEV solution. So it's more like preaching to the choir.
~Brian

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:46 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:Really cool info, Tony. Thanks for sharing!

This really isn't the right thread for it though. The only reason to post it in this thread is to rub hydrogen's nose in it. Not that anyone here is advocating or pushing for a FCEV solution. So it's more like preaching to the choir.


You don't think we have hydrogen shills here?

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:53 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:Really cool info, Tony. Thanks for sharing!

This really isn't the right thread for it though. The only reason to post it in this thread is to rub hydrogen's nose in it. Not that anyone here is advocating or pushing for a FCEV solution. So it's more like preaching to the choir.


You don't think we have hydrogen shills here?


wikipedia wrote:A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization. Shills can carry out their operations in the areas of media, journalism, marketing, confidence games, or other business areas. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest through character assassination or other means.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

I don't get that impression, no. But maybe I'm just naive?

I have found this thread very interesting. A decade or so ago, pursuing hydrogen seemed to make sense (to me). Now it is clear that it is a misdirection of limited funds. There is nothing I can do about how California spends its tax revenue. I just sit here on the other side of the country watching the hydrogen train wreck.

Regarding your post, isn't there a thread for EV trucking? If not, there really should be. It's starting to get interesting.
~Brian

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2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:23 pm

There is a thread for EV buses... which are rapidly adopting EV.

viewtopic.php?t=20582

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