GRA
Posts: 7252
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:51 pm

Via GCC:
Report: Hyundai to boost production of new fuel cell vehicle 15x to 3,600 units - See more at: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/06 ... LaFEB.dpuf
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/06 ... undai.html
. . . Hyundai sold 242 fuel cell vehicles last year; Toyota, the market leader with its Mirai, is targeting 3,000 fuel cell vehciles sold this year. Hyundai’s decision, according to the report, is part of an effort to check Toyota and to promote fuel cell vehicles. . . .

. . . The FE Concept showcases Hyundai Motor’s fourth-generation of hydrogen fuel cell technology, an evolution of research, development and real-world evaluation programs around the world. When compared with the current generation system used in the Tucson ix35 Fuel Cell, the new technology is 20% lighter, and achieves 10% greater efficiency. In addition, the power density of the fuel cell stack is increased by 30%, boosting the car’s range significantly.

The FE is designed to run for more than 800 kilometers (497 miles)* between refueling, acknowledging the current limited hydrogen infrastructure. Elements of the FE Fuel Cell Concept will influence an SUV Fuel Cell model set for launch in 2018, which will feature advanced Hyundai Smart Sense driver assistance technologies, alongside an extensive hydrogen-powered range.

Hyundai Motor launched the Tucson ix FCEV in 2013 and sold 27 units the same year. The company had sold a total of 666 units through the end of last year. Toyota sold 2,843 units of the Mirai through the end of last year.

. . . The Chinese government is planning to supply 5,000 FCEVs and install 100 charging stations by 2020. . . .

The number of registered FCEVs in Korea stood at 128 as of May this year. . . .

*Presumably on a liberal cycle, so you can probably multiply by .65 or .7 to reflect EPA range.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7252
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:53 pm

Via GCC:
Germany launches €60M, 3-year consortium project on high-volume production of automotive fuel cells; BMW, Daimler, Ford, VW
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/06 ... 9-bmw.html

. . . The “AutoStack Industry” project is a joint initiative of the German automotive and supply industries and aims to provide the technical, economic and technological basis for the commercial introduction of fuel cell vehicles in Germany and Europe by 2020. The consortium, which is lead by BMW, comprises leading German companies in the fields of automotive and fuel cell technology: BMW AG; Daimler AG; Reinz-Dichtungs GmbH (DANA); Ford Research and Innovation Center Aachen; Freudenberg Performance Materials SE & Co. KG; Greenerity GmbH; NuCellSys GmbH; Powercell Sweden AB; Umicore AG & Co. KG; Volkswagen AG; and Zentrum für Sonnenenergie- und Wasserstoff-Forschung Baden-Württemberg. . . .

Currently, fuel cell stacks are largely assembled by hand. Automated assembly saves time and costs and is therefore a prerequisite for a broad market launch of fuel cell vehicles.

The partners in the project will create common specifications and derive stack and component designs from this, then build a prototype stack. At the same time, the technology is being researched for a scalable and flexible production plant with a potential target capacity of 30,000 fuel cell stacks per year.

To achieve this, approximately 25 million individual components have to be inspected, processed and then packaged in such a way that no shifts occur between the components and no leakage between the components occurs in a cycle time of 0.5 seconds with high precision to 0.1 millimeter.

The key processes of such a production are the automated high-precision gripping, transfer, positioning and placement of components which are partly flexible and partly under mechanical stress. The flexible system is designed to produce stacks in the power range from 10 to 150 kW with a life expectancy of at least 5,500 hours.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7252
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:16 pm

Via GCR:
Chevrolet Colorado ZH2: first ride in hydrogen fuel-cell Army truck
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/111 ... army-truck

. . . Underneath its show-truck body, the ZH2 is a shortened Colorado ZR2 off-road truck with a version of the experimental Chevrolet Equinox hydrogen fuel-cell test-vehicle's 177-horsepower electric motor and proton-exchange membrane fuel-cell stack. It's beefed up for military use with a suspension lift and 37-inch BFGoodrich Mud-Terrain tires (perhaps the only time you'll read those words together on Green Car Reports).

GM and TARDEC are quick to point out the benefits of fuel-cell propulsion in a military vehicle: silent and quiet running to sneak up on or away from a nasty situation, a quiet and efficient electric generator, water vapor emissions that can be converted to re-ionized potable water, and the ability to extract hydrogen from military-grade JP8 fuel. . . . Tucked away behind a hinged lid in the ZH2's bed is an electric generator that TARDEC says can easily power its latest communications equipment.

Of course, there are some drawbacks to the ZH2—and those are just what TARDEC's year-long test spread across several military bases are hoping to both uncover and improve upon. For one, hydrogen is highly combustible when ignited by, say, sniper fire. In the ZH2, GM told us that the heavily protected tank has been designed to vent hydrogen up and away from the vehicle if its tank's integrity is compromised.

There's also the limited driving range of the ZH2, which TARDEC's representatives told us has proven to be highly variable. Florida's dunes had the electric motor working especially hard, which dropped the ZH2's range to around 90 miles. But in Colorado, the army has seen about double that. Additionally, there's no existing infrastructure for hydrogen on most military bases. . . .

However, the Army can extract hydrogen from its standard-issue JP8 fuel—though that requires energy to run what are effectively refineries. That could make hydrogen a feasible fuel source for not only vehicles but generators that could provide enough electricity to support an entire remote base. . . .


Via IEVS:
Riversimple Needs Beta Testers For Rasa Hydrogen Car
http://insideevs.com/rasa-beta-test-hydrogen/

. . .In order to sign up for the beta test of the Riversimple Rasa, you will need to live in or near Monmouthshire in the UK, have a reason to regularly go to nearby Abergavenny (where the one and only hydrogen refueling station will be set up), and want to test the car for between one and three months. If you meet all of those qualifications, then sign on up at the Riversimple website before September 1st and get ready to ride on H2 at some point by the end of the year. Riversimple is looking for between 80 and 100 beta testers.

As we wrote a year ago, the Riversimple Rasa is an ultra-light, two-seat, hydrogen-powered car with a range of 300 miles few tank. There are four electric motors, one in each wheel, and an 8.5-kW hydrogen fuel cell to power them. That’s not a lot of power, which is why the Rasa has a top speed of 60 miles per hour and is not allowed on the highway. The test vehicles will be hand-built.

Riversimple has not plans to actually sell the Rasa, even when it goes into actual production. Instead, the company will offer the car like today’s cell phones, using a service contract. The company says:

    "A customer will typically sign up for a contract of 1 – 3 years, and pay a monthly direct debit which comprises a fixed cost for the car + a charge relating to mileage. Riversimple pays for all the hydrogen, insurance and all maintenance, tyres, etc." . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

sparky
Posts: 654
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Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2011
Location: SoCal

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:49 pm

GRA, I do appreciate keeping you this thread updated since I'm interested in this topic.
It's mid 2017. GM has produced a damn fine, long range EV at a FCV beating price. Tesla has completed production of its first Model 3 (of 100k in the next 12 months?).
It's seems Mirai, and Clarity and the others just don't know they're dead yet. I know one person who has a FCV (Clarity). He loves it mostly because Honda has made it "free" to him with a cheap lease and free H2. Also, there's a First Element station near his house.
Most of the news seems to be gravitating towards other FCV applications. There's no great pull for FCVs. Seems BEVs have won.
Do you disagree?

Zythryn
Posts: 936
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:49 am

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:33 am

sparky wrote:GRA...
It's seems Mirai, and Clarity and the others just don't know they're dead yet. I know one person who has a FCV (Clarity). He loves it mostly because Honda has made it "free" to him with a cheap lease and free H2. Also, there's a First Element station near his house.
Most of the news seems to be gravitating towards other FCV applications. There's no great pull for FCVs. Seems BEVs have won.
Do you disagree?


I am sure he does disagree.
Frankly I think FCEV at the passenger vehicle level are idiotic and even I disagree with your conclusion.
While today, bevs are winning, it is too early to claim they have won.

We are getting closer every year though. I hope research into FCs continues, and I do hope they are used in areas where they are useful. I also hope the waste of the consumer level infrastructure needed for nationwide FC passenger vehicle support never happens.
Previous owner of Prius, Volt & Leaf
Current owner of Model S
http://www.netzeromn.com

lorenfb
Posts: 1258
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:09 am

sparky wrote:It's mid 2017. GM has produced a damn fine, long range EV at a FCV beating price.


But it doesn't sell, i.e. GM set production for 2017 at 30k, but YTD sales less than 8K.

sparky wrote:Tesla has completed production of its first Model 3 (of 100k in the next 12 months?).


And where did you purchase your "crystal ball"? Or because Elon said it, right? Please! Have you overlooked
the fact Tesla has never had a profit and with the Model 3, they'll lose even more money. How long before
"the reality" about Tesla's long term viability finally becomes apparent?

sparky wrote:Seems BEVs have won.


The average consumer doesn't agree!

Naivety abounds!

GRA
Posts: 7252
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:33 pm

sparky wrote:GRA, I do appreciate keeping you this thread updated since I'm interested in this topic.
It's mid 2017. GM has produced a damn fine, long range EV at a FCV beating price. Tesla has completed production of its first Model 3 (of 100k in the next 12 months?).
It's seems Mirai, and Clarity and the others just don't know they're dead yet. I know one person who has a FCV (Clarity). He loves it mostly because Honda has made it "free" to him with a cheap lease and free H2. Also, there's a First Element station near his house.
Most of the news seems to be gravitating towards other FCV applications. There's no great pull for FCVs. Seems BEVs have won.
Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. It remains way too early to say, and as long as BEVs and FCEVs remain dependent on subsidies for sales (see that thread), we simply won't know what their real commercial viability is. Bolt sales have been disappointing, and I think the reason is that people are now evaluating more realistically how they're going to use the cars now that the initial early adopter excitement has faded, what their real range requirements are, and how much that's worth to them.

The question for Tesla is can they produce the Model 3 at a profit, does the car have sales legs once the backlog is worked through, and can they avoid the QC problems that plagued the S and X on rollout? Given the way the market is going, I think the Model Y CUV would be a much more viable commercial prospect, but Tesla has to get past the Model 3 first.

I believe putting the Model Y on its own platform instead of doing what everyone else does and basing it on an existing one (the Model 3) will prove a costly mistake. So, while Tesla certainly has a better shot at making BEVs mainstream than anyone else at this time, thanks to both their cachet and the SC network, at least in the U.S. the VW settlement and other actions are likely to start reducing the latter advantage, and Tesla will soon be facing real competition for the first time in their high-end, profitable cars, so we'll have to wait and see.

FCEVs are slowly picking up steam, as the fueling infrastructure continues to be built up here and (in some cases more rapidly) other countries. They're still too expensive, the available models lack compelling performance or looks which has (along with the SC network) been the main driver of Tesla sales, and it takes a buyer who's mainly interested in the tech with an adequate income and convenient fueling to be a reasonable fit, which inevitably will limit their potential sales even if production constraints don't. Sales rate is roughly double compared to last year in California, now that two reasonably viable competitors are available (with the 3rd's leases being essentially too expensive, and lacking in range given the sparse refueling infrastructure, even though it's a CUV) along with more stations, but remain limited. Station roll-out here has fallen well behind schedule which hasn't helped, but is considerably faster in Germany and one or two other countries.

So, my take is that we'll have to wait another 3-5 years before we can make better predictions of whether one or both will succeed in the market. I've always expected that both techs would find niches, with the main uncertainty being the relative size of each. There are so many variables, especially involving the possible effects of car-sharing, autonomy and urban (re-)design, that expecting to accurately predict the ultimate result seems futile to me for now.

As an aside, although the Mirai has sold 4 or 5 times as many cars as the Clarity has so far in California (owing to it entering the market a year earlier), I see Claritys much more often. I have no idea why.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7252
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:11 pm

Via GCC:
ITM Power signs hydrogen fuel contract with Honda (UK)
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07 ... 1-itm.html

ITM Power has signed a fuel contract with Honda (UK), which will purchase hydrogen at £10/kg (US$12.91/kg). . . .

This is the seventeenth fuel supply contract for refueling fuel cell electric vehicles ITM Power has signed. Honda joins Toyota GB PLC, Hyundai Motor UK Ltd, Commercial Group, Skanska, UlemCo Ltd, Arval UK Ltd, UK Government Car Service, Arcola Energy, Johnson Matthey, Europcar, The Science Museum, JCB, Anglo American, Green Tomato Cars, Yorkshire Ambulance Service and Northern Gas Networks as a fuel customer.

ITM Power is currently rolling out a network of 10 hydrogen refueling stations in the UK of which 4 are now open for public access. Each station produces hydrogen on site via ITM Power’s rapid response electrolyzer system. . . .

Lowest unleaded price/l is currently 107.7 (pence), diesel is 108.7, which converts to £4.08 and £4.11/U.S.G., so at the above price on-site electrolyzed H2 is getting close to cost parity in the U.K. for medium/large-sized non-hybrid gas cars, still a ways to go for smaller gas/diesels.

Also GCC:
€6.1M EU project to develop advanced balance of plant components for fuel cell vehicles
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07 ... lance.html

The EU-funded INN-BALANCE (INNovative Cost Improvements for BALANCE of Plant Components of Automotive PEMFC Systems) project launched earlier this year with the aim of developing a novel and integrated development platform for developing advanced Balance of Plant (BOP) components in current fuel cell based vehicles.

The goal is to improve BOP component efficiency and reliability, reducing costs and presenting a stable supply chain to the European car manufacturers and system integrators. . . .

INN-BALANCE will focus on four main general topics:

    New components developments, addressing the latest changes and trends in fuel cells vehicles technology, from new air turbo-compressor, anode recirculation/injection module and advanced control/diagnosis devices to new concepts of thermal management and anti-freeze units based on standard automotive components.

    Vehicle integration and validation of the components in a TRL7 platform placed at a well-known car manufacturing platform.

    Providing innovative and cost-optimized manufacturing processes especially developed for automotive BOP components.

    Results dissemination and exploitation, new technology broadcasting and public awareness of new, low-cost and reliable clean energy solutions in Europe bringing at the same time highly qualified new job opportunities.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7252
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:53 pm

Via GCC:
Toyota and partners begin full-scale operation of showcase project to supply low-carbon H2 to fuel cell forklifts
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07 ... 3-tmc.html

A Japanese partnership . . . announced that all facilities to be used in the FY2015 Regional Cooperation and Low-carbon Hydrogen Technology Demonstration Project commissioned by the Ministry of the Environment have been completed, and full-scale operations have commenced.

The goal of the project is to implement and evaluate a low-carbon hydrogen supply chain which will utilize hydrogen produced from renewable energy in facilities along Tokyo Bay (in Yokohama and Kawasaki) to power 12 fuel cell forklifts. The project aims to construct a low-carbon hydrogen supply chain that can reduce overall CO2 emissions by at least 80% when compared with conventional approaches.

A system has been created for using electricity generated at the Yokohama City Wind Power Plant (Hama Wing) to electrolyze water to create low-carbon hydrogen, which is then compressed and stored. The hydrogen produced at the site will be transported in a hydrogen fueling truck to a fruit and vegetable market, a factory, and warehouses. The hydrogen will be used in fuel cells to power forklifts at these locations.

The creation of this hydrogen supply chain in cooperation with local partners is expected to reduce CO2 emissions by at least 80% when compared with a supply chain using forklifts powered by gasoline or grid electricity. . . .

The project includes:

    a system to produce hydrogen by electrolyzing water using wind power;
    a system to optimize storage and transportation of hydrogen;
    use of fuel cell forklifts; and
    a hydrogen supply chain feasibility study.

Specific items to be verified by the project include the business case for hydrogen supply chains and future expansion to other regions. .
. .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7252
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:39 pm

Via GCC:
Sandia researchers take study of hydrogen-powered passenger ferries to next level; optimizing design
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07 ... andia.html

In the San Francisco Bay Renewable Energy Electric Vessel with Zero Emissions study, known as SF-BREEZE, researchers at Sandia National Laboratories concluded liquid hydrogen fuel cells are feasible on technical, regulatory and economic bases. (Earlier post.)*

Now, Sandia researchers are taking the work to the next level in a second study that focuses on the optimal combination of vessel design, speed and passenger capacity, which, once determined, could reduce uncertainty in the industry; and the technical evidence to support new safety codes for hydrogen fuel-cell vessels. The work is funded by the US Department of Transportation’s Maritime Administration’s Maritime Environmental and Technical Assistance program.

The initial feasibility study focused on a 150-passenger ferry traveling at 35 knots. Now, mechanical engineer and project lead Joe Pratt is asking whether it makes sense to design ferries that are faster or slower, larger or smaller.

Sandia Labs started by plotting typical speeds and passenger capacities of about 600 passenger ferries in the US, and found that the ferry studied in the SF-BREEZE project was actually an outlier, being faster and having fewer passengers than most.

Although previous work on the SF-BREEZE project demonstrated the feasibility of utilizing hydrogen fuel cells for propulsion power on a high-speed passenger vessel, it became apparent that there may be better economic returns when applied to slower speed vessels. The next logical step in the process is to examine the effect of speed and passenger count on the overall cost and per-passenger emissions for hydrogen fuel cell-powered passenger vessels, which is why the optimization study is important. . . .

Sandia hopes to produce a half dozen ferry concepts to demonstrate which are most economical and which will make the most impact on protecting the environment.

Sandia is reviewing International Maritime Organization codes for liquid natural gas-powered vessels and developing a technical basis for codes that could be created for hydrogen fuel-cell vessels. Currently, liquid natural gas codes are the closest regulations that can be applied to hydrogen-powered vessels, but they may not accurately represent the properties of hydrogen.

For example, the LNG code requires LNG vessels to have a clearance of 30 feet around all sides of their vents. Hydrogen is lighter than natural gas and much lighter than air, so it does not sink in air like LNG does. Thus, a 30-foot clearance underneath a vent might not be a necessary requirement for a hydrogen ferry, said Sandia Labs mechanical engineer Myra Blaylock, technical lead for the project.

Labs researchers are using computer simulation to explore and analyze four common vent and leak scenarios in which hydrogen could be released on-board vessels to show actual hydrogen behavior. The computational simulations have underlying physics models that have been validated through experiments and allow researchers to confidently explore various scenarios in a quicker and less-expensive way than conducting experimental work for each individual case. The results can be used by the International Maritime Organization to ensure the accuracy of the codes when applied to hydrogen vessels. . . .


*See post up-topic on:
Sandia study finds high-speed hydrogen-powered ferry and supporting infrastructure in SF Bay feasible
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161006-sandia.html

Direct link to that study:
Feasibility of the SF-BREEZE:
a Zero-Emission, Hydrogen Fuel Cell,
High-Speed Passenger Ferry
https://www.marad.dot.gov/wp-content/uploads/pdf/SF-BREEZE-Ferry-Feasibility-Study-Report-by-Sandia-National-Laboratory-2.pdf
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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