AndyH
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:53 pm

Nubo wrote:I'm not opposed to that; Hydrogen as an energy storage medium holds promise -- IF being used to store clean energy. My fear is that the "hydrogen economy" will be largely a way for petro companies to repackage their fossil fuels.

This is where my resistance lies as well.
Nubo wrote:However, what is the capital outlay for a PV system, hydrolyzer, fuel cell, and H2 compression and storage, all sufficient to fuel a vehicle? I don't see this going mainstream quickly, even if it works well and deals with H2 generation losses, density and diffusion properties. It's far cry from plugging in an EV.

Yes, today it's expensive. But it's also proven to work. There are fuel cell UPS vans on the road, city buses, etc. I'd much rather see an expansion of H2 rather than a move to CNG vehicles.
Nubo wrote:Motorists value convenience above all. That's the one strong suit of EVs that can overcome some of the trepidation and "range anxiety". Word of mouth about how convenient they really are to own and drive. I see H2 taking quite some time before it compares to the convenience level of EVs, or conversely the "drive anywhere at a moments notice" siren song of gasoline. Just doesn't seem to hit either note.

I think this is where we get off-track with the discussion. I don't see the H2 infrastructure being best used for personal cars, but rather to allow the expansion of fuel cell buses and delivery vehicles. I like that we can get more diesels out of cities while also pushing natural gas aside.
http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/42781-2.pdf

Europe's in the lead here - check this out:
http://gofuelcellbus.com/index.php/project/high-vlocityscotland
H2 Fueling Infrastructure
A 1MWe electrolyser provided by BOC will generate hydrogen. Scottish & Southern Energy Power Distribution (SSEPD) will supply electricity from a nearby wind farm to power the electrolyser which will also operate in a grid balancing capacity.
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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:01 pm

Ah well, the law is signed, $20M or 10 H2 stations per year allocated for, so they are coming. Some cars will be sold, but the EV market should blow them away. Who knows, maybe future technology will make them viable.

Here's an interesting study, just FYI: http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/pdfs/51564.pdf
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:04 pm

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:The article states that Tesla was a supporter.

Planning a FCEV themselves?
No I think Elon supports all competition to build the alternative fuel markets into mainstream.
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:07 pm

Elon Musk: "Fuel cells are so bullshit"

Jump directly to 29m15s: http://youtu.be/MmQb94EF1UY?t=29m15s

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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:26 pm

^ "no way for it to be a workable technology" ...quotes like that have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass

also "hydrogen is quite, kind of dangerous" - I so thought he was about to make a Hindenburg joke there, but I think he caught himself and remembered where he was :lol:
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ydnas7
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:20 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:^ "no way for it to be a workable technology" ...quotes like that have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass

also "hydrogen is quite, kind of dangerous" - I so thought he was about to make a Hindenburg joke there, but I think he caught himself and remembered where he was :lol:



Elon is actually being very sincere when he describes Hydrogen Fuel Cells as Fool Cells, for automotive use, its a technology where success is not a possible outcome for varying reasons. But Tesla's 2 automotive shareholders are big into Hydrogen Fuel Cells, so Tesla is more polite than Elon in describing Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle.

Even going back to early Tesla, Hydrogen is not seen as competive. Page 7 http://www.evworld.com/library/tesla_21centuryev.pdf

GRA
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:16 pm

I confess I don't understand all the claims about the size of the infrastructure being a major impediment to H2 fuel cells. Obviously, the infrastructure will be limited to start with, but so what, every developing infrastructure suffers from that. But just as with BEVs, you start by building the densest infrastructure where the majority of sales will be, and we know where that is in California - the metropolitan areas of the S.F. Bay Area, L.A., San Diego and Sacramento.

Inevitably there will be a need for some people to travel further than they would like to fuel at the start, but those people will probably hold off buying until there's a station more conveniently located. Or maybe they'll be able to buy a FCHV like the variant of the Highlander that's now available, so that they do their local driving on batteries. Ultimately, in an urban area you want fueling stations no more than 5 miles from anyone, but that will take a while.

Where H2 fuel cells really shine is that with their range, long road trips don't need many stations. Consider what a 300+ mile freeway range with 5 minute refueling gives you. Although I'm not suggesting you would space them that far apart, the almost 800 mile length of I-5 in California can be covered by just two H2 stations, for argument's sake lets say at Lost Hills (Exit 278) and Dunnigan (Exit 556). the former covers I-5 from the Mexican border northwards, the latter the area from Medford, Or. south, and between them they cover the San Joaquin Valley.

More practically, you'd want stations spaced between 1/3rd and 1/2 of the max. range, to allow for out and back trips up to that radius plus some local driving without needing to refuel. Either way, the long range means the number of H2 stations, like the number of gas stations required to provide a basic infrastructure to cover the whole state, is fairly small.

And the fast refueling time gives another benefit. While co-locating 24/7 services like food and bathrooms at the H2 refueling stations is nice to have, it's not essential in the way it is for 30 minute or more QCs. You can go elsewhere for those services as you're not tied to that location for a prolonged period of time, so unmanned stations can be used which are available 24/7.

An example of this might be to put an H2 electrolysis fueling station at Moccasin on Highway 120 on the way to Yosemite, at the base of Priest Grade (Old and New). There's absolutely nothing at Moccasin except a hydroelectric power station, which is part of San Francisco's Hetch Hetchy water and power system. But ten minutes east is the town of Groveland, where food and other services are available.

Someone posted that they think that BEV ranges will have improved to fuel cell range in the next few years at a lower price. Certainly that's a possibility but by no means a certainty, and the competition between them will improve both types.

I've got no preference for which ultimately wins, but it's far too early to say which will prove superior. Or perhaps each will find their own niche(s), or FCHVs will rule.

As for home hydrogen production, well, we're a long ways from that making any financial or energy sense, and the safety issues will probably dominate in any case. For commercial production I expect that the majority of H2 in this dem/val stage will come from methane, but I know that at least one of the planned H2 stations will use PV or wind-powered electrolysis, which will ultimately be required. I can live with the use of methane for now, as long as we keep it small scale.

I expect it will be fairly small scale, because companies don't want to sink a lot of capital into production installations that may be obsolete in just a few years. For example, compression to 5-10,000 PSI takes something like 15-20% of the energy embodied in the H2, and if low-pressure metal hydride or nanotube storage becomes commercial in a few years, those expensive (and energy-intensive) compressors will only be worth their scrap-value, unless they can be re-purposed.
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:06 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:^ "no way for it to be a workable technology" ...quotes like that have a way of coming back and biting you in the ass

also "hydrogen is quite, kind of dangerous" - I so thought he was about to make a Hindenburg joke there, but I think he caught himself and remembered where he was :lol:

Well---Mr. Musk is certainly optimistic regarding the future of electric autos.
Last edited by derkraut on Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ydnas7
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:02 pm

Gra

Miles are probably both cheaper and more compact for Tesla to get from a Panasonic/Samsung/LG battery, than it is for Toyota/Etc to get from a carbon fibre H2 tank. and that is excluding the cost of the fuel cell stack and other ancillary expenses. But Toyota/Etc must sell for less than a Model S, because fuel cells vehicles are so much less acceleration and cramped than their EV competition.

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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:15 pm

derkraut wrote:Well---Mr. Musk is certainly an egotistical SOB. Sort of reminds me of Obama. :roll:
Well, I'd say that at worst, both can display a little cockiness, on rare occassions. And given their track record of accomplishments, success, and being right, I think they can be forgiven momentary "lapses" &or a small amout of gloating.

On the whole, I think any objective observer of their public personae would say that they are for the most part humble and gracious. Far more so than others who have held similar positions (fill in your own examples here), and certainly more so than they "need" be.

:shock:
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

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