GRA
Posts: 6486
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:33 pm

Via GCC:
Toyota to explore heavy-duty truck hydrogen fuel cell application in California
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... hdfcv.html

. . . A heavy-duty truck sized fuel cell vehicle creates a potential zero-emission freight transportation solution for the future. Toyota said that it will announce additional details on the study, and the continued evolution of a hydrogen society, in the coming months.

Via IEVS, an episode of "Fully Charged" showing an H2 station generating it onsite using variable renewables for electrolysis:
ITM Hydrogen Rally In Toyota Mirai – Fully Charged
http://insideevs.com/itm-hydrogen-rally ... y-charged/

This is of course currently the most expensive method.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:57 am

GRA wrote:
Stoaty wrote:That's what some of us have been saying for the last 372 pages of this thread. Now confirmed. In other news, it is now believed the sun will rise in the East tomorrow and water is wet. No matter how much you keep pushing FCEV for a task for which they are not competitive.

Uh, competitive how?


Economics. Convenience for more people. FCEVs lose on both, except for the long range use case, where gasoline is and will be the winner for a long time (and biofuels are more likely to take over than hydrogen).

The only way FCEVs can survive is with massive subsidies. These are looking more time limited now...
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

lorenfb
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:01 pm

GRA wrote:AFAIA, no one here has ever said that FCEVs were the cheapest option (certainly not currently), but that they provided the quickest, easiest ZEV transition for the public based on their operating capabilities and divorce of fueling from living situations. There's never been any question that a BEV which can can meet the operating requirements and has the lowest TCO is the optimum choice for those who can use it.


Some continue to either forget that or ignore it!

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:15 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:
Stoaty wrote:That's what some of us have been saying for the last 372 pages of this thread. Now confirmed. In other news, it is now believed the sun will rise in the East tomorrow and water is wet. No matter how much you keep pushing FCEV for a task for which they are not competitive.

Uh, competitive how?


Economics. Convenience for more people. FCEVs lose on both, except for the long range use case, where gasoline is and will be the winner for a long time (and biofuels are more likely to take over than hydrogen).

The only way FCEVs can survive is with massive subsidies. These are looking more time limited now...

Convenience for more people only applies in the U.S. and a few other countries with a majority of the population living in detached, single family homes with dedicated parking/garages with electricity. As has been pointed out many times, the majority of the world's urban population, including in those parts of the world which will see the greatest growth in vehicle use over the next several decades, doesn't live like this, and it will take many decades to provide charging for them.

As for massive subsidies, sure, FCEVs need them now. If the federal tax credit gets repealed, we'll see if PEVs can survive in this country without them - I think PHEVs priced like the Prius Prime can, but am not sure about the Bolt, and to date public for-profit charging remains totally dependent on subsidies just as H2 fueling stations are. The difference is there doesn't seem to be a lot more improvement that can be made in reducing the cost of electricity, while H2 stations still have a lot of room for cost reduction in both the fuel and the equipment, and at current gas prices an HEV or even a high mpg ICE is cheaper to fuel than a BEV is, if you can't charge using low cost electricity at home. H2, of course, is completely non-competitive on price at the moment.

Personally, I won't be too bothered if the tax credits go away, as I think it's time for PEVs to show if they can compete head-to-head. FCEVs may well be a casualty if the credits disappear, but that's okay if at least one ZEV tech can make it on its own.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6486
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:38 pm

All via GCC:
DOE announces $30M in funding for hydrogen and fuel cell technologies
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... -fcto.html

I think there was a prior article announcing the funding opportunity, but this one goes into more technical detail, so I'm posting it. As this is taken directly from the gov't. publication, fair use rules don't apply.

. . . The FOA topics include:

Topic 1: PGM-free Catalyst and Electrode R&D—this topic will leverage the Electrocatalysis Consortium (ElectroCat) to accelerate the development of catalysts made without platinum group metals (PGM-free) for use in fuel cells for transportation.

Topic 2: Advanced Water Splitting Materials—this topic will leverage the HydroGEN Consortium to accelerate the development of advanced water splitting materials for hydrogen production, with an initial focus on advanced electrolytic, photoelectrochemical, and solar thermochemical pathways.

Topic 3: Hydrogen Storage Materials Discovery—this topic will leverage the Hydrogen Materials—Advanced Research Consortium (HyMARC) to address unsolved scientific challenges in the development of viable solid-state materials for hydrogen storage onboard fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs).

Topic 4: Precursor Development for Low-Cost, High-Strength Carbon Fiber for Use in Composite Overwrapped Pressure Vessel Applications—this topic will aim to reduce the cost of onboard hydrogen storage necessary for FCEVs. Applicants for this topic will be encouraged to collaborate with LightMAT, a consortium launched by the DOE Vehicle Technologies Office to enable light-weighting of vehicles through the development of high-strength steels and carbon fiber.

Concept papers are due December 20, 2016 and full applications will be due February 21, 2017


Plug Power signs cooperative agreement for fuel cell electric vehicle development in China
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... 18-pp.html

Plug Power Inc., has signed a cooperative memorandum of understanding (MOU) with Zhangjiagang Furui Special Equipment Co., LTD (Furui), along with a leading Chinese industrial vehicle manufacturer—also identified as one of the “big three” Chinese automakers—to develop new fuel cell applications and fueling solutions to be utilized in the large and expanding industrial electric vehicle market in China.

Under the terms of the agreement, the three companies will collaborate to build electric vehicles equipped with Plug Power designed hybrid fuel cell engine systems and hydrogen fueling station solutions. . . .

Near-term deliverables for the program include two industrial delivery truck prototypes, both using Plug Power’s ProGen fuel cell engines, by March, 2017, with a short term projection for more than 500 vehicles and a fueling station network to be deployed in the Shanxi province over the following year.

Based on the acceptance of the first 500 units, the program goal is to deploy 13,500 commercial fuel cell vehicles over three years with a widespread fueling station network. . . .

Furui, a leader in China’s development of the compressed and liquefied natural gas industry has developed, deployed, and operates LNG refueling stations throughout China . . . Today, a well-developed and extensive refueling infrastructure is in place with more than 2000 LNG fueling stations deployed in the China market. . . .


DOE: California, Connecticut, and New York top fuel cell states
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... lcell.html

According to the newly released State of the States: Fuel Cells in America 2016 report [link to pdf here: http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/downlo ... erica-2016 ] from the US Department of Energy’s (DOE) Fuel Cell Technologies Office (FCTO), the top three hydrogen and fuel cell states in the US are California, Connecticut, and New York.

California is home to the greatest number of stationary fuel cells, while Connecticut and Delaware are home to the largest installations (roughly 15 MW and 30 MW, respectively—equivalent to power approximately 15,000 houses and 30,000 houses, respectively).

While hydrogen cars hit the streets and hydrogen stations spring up around the county, the industry has seen a consistent growth rate of 30% per year since 2010. According to the report, the northeast hydrogen and fuel cell supply chain contributed nearly $1.4 billion in revenue and investment, supported more than 6,550 direct and indirect jobs, and industry labor reported income of approximately $620 million just in 2015 alone. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

lorenfb
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:15 am

A long term issue which could favor a FCEV over a BEV, i.e. given its significantly smaller battery?

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4024747-tesla-getting-may-ideal#alt2

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:59 pm

Via GCC:
Kalmar partners with SSAB to develop a medium-range fuel cell forklift
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... almar.html

. . . The forklift truck to be developed will have a lift capacity of 9-18 tons and it will use hydrogen gas as fuel.

The project will last for approximately two years and it will include the development, demonstration and testing of the forklift truck. The equipment will be produced by Kalmar to be used at the SSAB production facility in Oxelösund, Sweden.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6486
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:25 pm

Via GCC:
Toshiba begins construction on integrated Hydrogen Application Center
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... enter.html

Toshiba Corporation broke ground on a new Hydrogen Application Center at its Fuchu Complex in western Tokyo. Scheduled to start operation in April 2017, the center will be built around a newly designed H2One hydrogen power system that will use renewable energy to produce hydrogen and supply it to fuel-cell powered forklifts operating in Fuchu Complex. . . .

The system is controlled by Toshiba’s hydrogen energy management system, H2EMS, which includes a new hydrogen demand prediction function that forecasts supply requirements for fuel cell vehicles, allowing space saving optimization of the area devoted to hydrogen storage.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6486
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:17 pm

Via GCC:
Ballard signs fuel cell supply agreement with Solaris; initial order of 10 modules as range extenders for electric trolley buses
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... llard.html

Ballard Power Systems has signed a Long-Term Sales Agreement (LTSA) with Solaris Bus & Coach, a bus OEM headquartered in Poland, for the sale and supply of fuel cell modules to support deployment of Solaris fuel cell buses in Europe. An initial order placed under the LTSA is for 10 FCveloCity-HD fuel cell modules, with deliveries planned to start in 2017.

Each 85 kilowatt FCveloCity-HD fuel cell module that has been ordered will be deployed as a range extender in a Solaris Trollino model low-floor trolley bus. Solaris has signed a contract with Rigas Satiksme, the transport operator in the city of Riga, Latvia for 10 of the Trollino trolley buses. . . .

The Solaris Trollino model articulated bus that will be delivered to Rigas is 18.75 meters (61.5 feet) long and is equipped with a battery (energy storage is an option on the Trollino 18 model). The onboard fuel cell module will engage as the trolley bus moves into any portion of its route that does not have catenary wiring, thereby extending the operating range of the bus. . . .

The fuel cell module is a clean energy alternative to diesel auxiliary power units (APUs) currently used in Trollino buses allowing them to operate on short distances without external power supply—for example, the route between the depot and the beginning of electric traction. . . .

This would seem to be a case where a battery could handle the job, but maybe the weight's prohibitive.

Wrights Group showcases hydrogen fuel cell bus driveline in London; production-ready in 2017
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/11 ... ights.html

The Wrights Group launched the new Wrightbus zero-emission double deck bus at a conference in London. The Wrightbus debuts a new hydrogen fuel cell driveline which will become available to power both single-deck and double-deck buses as it becomes fully production-ready next year.

The drive system encompasses a hydrogen fuel cell stack and a battery pack to power the vehicle. The combination of these two technologies makes the continuous daily operation of the public transport vehicle feasible.

All Wrightbus hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will feature an electric drive axle packaged to allow a full flat floor throughout the bus, a zero-emission heating/cooling system, the ability for overnight charging if the operator desires, and remote diagnostics. . . .

It's not clear to me if this is designed as an FCHEV, or a BEV with FC range-extender.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6486
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:39 pm

Via GCC:
NREL report finds hydrogen fuel cell bus fuel economy up to 1.4x that of diesel, 1.9x CNG
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/12 ... -nrel.html

The US Department of Energy (DOE) Fuel Cell Technology Office (FCTO) has released the latest edition of an annual report showing that the average fuel economy of fuel cell electric buses from three fleets is 6.8 miles per diesel gallon equivalent (DGE) (ranging from 5.56 - 7.71 DGE), 1.4 times higher than conventional diesel buses (~4.2 miles per DGE) from one fleet and up to 1.9 times higher than compressed natural gas buses (~3.3 miles per DGE) in another fleet.

This demonstrates significant fuel economy improvement toward the DOE and Federal Transit Administration’s (FTA) target of 8 miles per DGE. FCEB durability has reached 23,000 hours, surpassing FCTO’s 2016 target of 18,000 hours, and range has reached up to 340 miles (547 km), more than 13% above the 2016 target of 300 miles (483 km).

However, NREL also noted that the fuel economy for the FCEBs has shown a decrease over time. This could be due to a variety of factors including changes in duty cycle, temperature, operator driving styles, fuel cell power plant degradation, and hydrogen station metering differences. . . .

Despite the continued improvements in performance, fuel cell buses still face challenges to commercial viability, including:

    Parts supply. <snip>

    Bus range/low fuel. <snip>

    Maintenance staff. <snip>

    Maintenance costs. <snip>

    Purchase cost. The capital cost for FCEBs in 2010 was around $2.5 million. More recent orders for FCEBs have had an average cost of $1.8 million—a 28% decrease. Costs should continue to drop with increasing orders; the industry projects an order for 40 buses could result in costs closer to $1 million each.

Direct link to report, "Fuel Cell Buses in U.S. Transit Fleets: Current Status 2016": http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/downloads/fuel-cell-buses-us-transit-fleets-current-status-2016
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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