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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:46 am

I had an interesting discussion yesterday with a young man who is responsible for all the maintenance and operation of a hydrogen filling station for a fleet of forklifts which use PlugPower fuel cells for their source of electricity. Here are some things which I learned:

- There are four H2 filling stations at the facility.
- The cost of the storage and refueling infrastructure for this single warehouse was about $3.5M.
- He said maintenance for the refueling infrastructure has been very straightforward.
- The H2 is steam reformed from natural gas and trucked in.
- A "typical" fill is about 1.5 kg of H2.
- Refueling was at 350 bar.
- The filling stations do not use chillers like those used for automotive H2 filling stations.
- There are temperature sensors inside the tank of the PlugPower unit which communicate with the filling station. The fill is terminated at about 40C.
- He noted that one of the benefits of the H2 fuel cell is that the fork lifts did not lose performance (speed) as the H2 in the tank dropped. This is a significant benefit over the battery-powered vehicles.
- Another benefit of H2 fuel cells is that they can operate at full performance in cold environments such as in a freezer.
- PlugPower has been having problems keeping the fuel cells operating recently. This poses a problem for the company this young man works for which provides the H2 and refueling infrastructure since they are not selling nearly as much H2 as expected, making the venture not financially attractive.
- I asked how a warehouse could afford to have its forklifts NOT operating, given that high availability was supposed to be the main benefit of H2-fuel-cell-powered forklifts. He explained that this warehouse has a large number of spare forklift capacity which they easily substituted for the broken fuel-cell units.
- He indicated that the electric forklift batteries take 16 hours to recharge, so they are not fast-charge units.

For reference, here is the datasheet for the Series 1000 GenDrive units from PlugPower.

It looks like there are real applications in the forklift industry (inside a freezer, for instance), but it seems to me that there is lots of room in that market for Li-ion batteries that has not yet been addressed.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 3K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:16 pm

This guy is literally comparing a million dollar hydrogen operation to slow charging, old fashioned lead acid batteries in forklifts.

A modern lithium pack that can fast charge at 2C (or swap packs, or both) could easily be orders of magnitudes lower cost and higher uptime.

If operating in a freezer is important, oversized the battery enough to power a battery heater. Insulate the battery.

Lithiums are not going to slow down, like a lead acid might operating on straight DC, when the DC is converted to power a 3 phase AC drive motor. Perhaps don't let the cells discharge below 20%. That would KILL the performance of a lead acid powered DC motor, but you could size the lithium battery to offer full performance at all times.

Offering DC quick charging seems like a no brainer. For warehouses that don't operate 24 hours per day, you might only need one DC fast charger (for an exceptional situation), and all the forklifts would normally charge overnight.

For a 24 hour operation, a combination of DC fast charging, and battery swaps might be best.

Some real simple telematics would alert the shift supervisor that a forklift wasn't plugged in with a low battery state.

This stuff seems real simple and obvious to me.

No "trucked in" electricity
They could all be solar powered
No emissions, not even water (which could be a mess in some warehouses... causing ice in a freezer!)
This might be a market for a combination of Super Capacitors and lithium batteries operating together.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:44 pm

All via GCC:
NSF to award $13M to projects focused on electrochemical and organic photovoltaic systems
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/02 ... 4-nsf.html

In addition to research on various types of batteries and organic PV, there's this:
. . . Photocatalytic or photoelectrochemical processes for the splitting of water into H2 gas, or for the reduction of CO2 to liquid or gaseous fuels are appropriate. Emphasis should be placed on fundamental molecular level understanding of key barriers that impact system level performance. . . .


Shell opens its first hydrogen fueling forecourt station in UK
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/02 ... shell.html

. . . The new hydrogen station has been supplied by ITM Power and is the first fully branded and public hydrogen refueling site in the UK. It is the first of three hydrogen stations Shell plans to open in the UK in 2017. The hydrogen refueling station is located at Cobham services on the M25, the nation’s busiest refueling station. The station is ITM Power’s fourth public hydrogen refueling station to be opened in the UK.

The opening of Shell’s first UK hydrogen site follows the success of sites in California, and in Germany where Shell is part of a joint venture with the ambition to open a network of up to 400 hydrogen sites by 2023. Shell is in the process of assessing the potential of future projects in the United States, Canada, Switzerland, Austria, France, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:54 pm

Via GCR:
Why liquid hydrogen may make sense for airplanes, replacing jet fuel
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... g-jet-fuel

I have my doubts. While boil-off won't be a problem in flight, as usage rate should exceed boil-off rate, long ground holds are another matter, and then there's the general hassle of dealing with LH2.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6638
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:07 pm

Via GCC, lab work so usual caveats:
Sandia, Lawrence Livermore team improves solid-state H2 storage using nano-confinement; new paradigm for hydrogen storage
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/02 ... -wood.html

. . . Complex metal hydrides are a promising class of hydrogen storage materials, but their viability is usually limited by slow hydrogen uptake and release. Nanoconfinement—infiltrating the metal hydride within a matrix of another material such as carbon—can, in certain instances, help make this process faster by shortening diffusion pathways for hydrogen or by changing the thermodynamic stability of the material.

However, the researchers showed that nanoconfinement can have another, potentially more important consequence. They found that the presence of internal “nano-interfaces” within nanoconfined hydrides can alter which phases appear when the material is cycled.

    The key is to get rid of the undesirable intermediate phases, which slow down the material’s performance as they are formed or consumed. If you can do that, then the storage capacity kinetics dramatically improve and the thermodynamic requirements to achieve full recharge become far more reasonable. In this material, the nano-interfaces do just that, as long as the nanoconfined particles are small enough. It’s really a new paradigm for hydrogen storage, since it means that the reactions can be changed by engineering internal microstructures.

    —Brandon Wood, an LLNL materials scientist and lead author . . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:15 pm

GRA wrote:Via GCR:
Why liquid hydrogen may make sense for airplanes, replacing jet fuel
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... g-jet-fuel

I have my doubts. While boil-off won't be a problem in flight, as usage rate should exceed boil-off rate, long ground holds are another matter, and then there's the general hassle of dealing with LH2.
Agreed. Let's stick with fuels for jets which remain liquid up to at least 50C.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 3K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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TonyWilliams
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Location: San Diego
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:01 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Via GCR:
Why liquid hydrogen may make sense for airplanes, replacing jet fuel
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... g-jet-fuel

I have my doubts. While boil-off won't be a problem in flight, as usage rate should exceed boil-off rate, long ground holds are another matter, and then there's the general hassle of dealing with LH2.
Agreed. Let's stick with fuels for jets which remain liquid up to at least 50C.


There are lots of ways to make liquid fuels for jets. Cost is really the only limiting factor.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:46 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Via GCR: http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... g-jet-fuel

I have my doubts. While boil-off won't be a problem in flight, as usage rate should exceed boil-off rate, long ground holds are another matter, and then there's the general hassle of dealing with LH2.
Agreed. Let's stick with fuels for jets which remain liquid up to at least 50C.


There are lots of ways to make liquid fuels for jets. Cost is really the only limiting factor.

Yeah, as long as sustainable drop-in biofuels can be produced in the needed volume, I think that's far more likely to be commercially viable, as well as being the simplest approach.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:46 am

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... -by-symbio

Solution for a delivery fleet. Especially with low range eNV200.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new

@ 25 months, 25k, 267 GID, 56.88 Ahr
@ 29 months, 29k, 286 GID, 60.88 Ahr
@ 31 months, 30.3k, 274 GID, 58.39 Ahr

6.72 kW Array

GRA
Posts: 6638
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:51 pm

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109155_fuel-cell-range-extender-for-nissan-e-nv200-electric-taxis-announced-by-symbio

Solution for a delivery fleet. Especially with low range eNV200.

For those who'd like more, I'd posted another link (from GCC) in the AFV truck and Non-BEV Bus thread: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/03/20170302-symbio.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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