GRA
Posts: 6626
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:28 pm

Via GCC:
Toyota to collaborate in research for the creation of H2-based society in the United Arab Emirates
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/01 ... tauae.html

Toyota Motor Corporation has agreed to collaborate with Masdar, Abu Dhabi National Oil Company (ADNOC), Air Liquide, and Toyota distributor Al-Futtaim Motors in a joint research program to explore the potential of hydrogen energy use in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) for the creation of a sustainable, low-carbon society. As part of the program, Toyota will begin driving and refueling demonstration tests of the Mirai fuel cell vehicle (FCV) in the UAE from May 2017.

. . . The program partners will jointly research on key issues involving the establishment of a hydrogen-based society, including hydrogen production, logistics, scalability, and business feasibility. The research is expected to take place in part at Masdar Institute, an Abu Dhabi-based independent graduate research university, which has been part of the discussions on the scope of hydrogen research.

Utilizing a hydrogen station that is to be built in May 2017, Toyota will conduct a complete range of driving and refueling tests under extreme heat, dust, and other conditions unique to the local environment. Toyota will also provide short-term leases to the UAE government institutions and opinion leaders so as to promote better understanding of FCVs and hydrogen-based societies. . . .


Also GCC:
Australia and Japan developing safety standards for marine transport of liquid hydrogen; KHI building carrier
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/01 ... 6-lh2.html

Australia and Japan recently signed a memorandum at the headquarters of the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA) which will allow liquid hydrogen (LH2) to be shipped in bulk for the first time. . . .

Bulk gas cargoes are carried under the International Code for the Construction and Equipment of Ships Carrying Liquefied Gases in Bulk (IGC Code) which is a mandatory code under the Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) convention. The IGC code does not currently allow for the transportation of liquid hydrogen.

Cargoes not covered by the code can be carried if there is an agreement between relevant nations—the flag State of the ship, port of loading and port of unloading—and changes are developed to the code and taken to the International Maritime Organization (IMO) for approval.

Australia worked with Japan to develop interim carriage requirements for the transportation of liquid hydrogen in bulk from Australia to Japan. These were agreed to at the IMO Maritime Safety Committee in November 2016. . . .

Kawasaki is currently developing a prototype LH2 carrier; the vessel will have a cargo capacity of 2,500 m3, equivalent to that of coastal trading LNG vessels. (Earlier post.) Kawasaki obtained approval in principle from Nippon Kaiji Kyokai (ClassNK) for the cargo containment system in 2013. Kawasaki aims to develop a large liquefied hydrogen carrier with a capacity of around 160,000 m3.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6626
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:06 pm

Via GCC:
IUPUI-based engineering startup receives $225,000 NSF grant for solid-state H2 storage
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/01 ... iupui.html

A startup based on work conducted at the School of Engineering and Technology at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis has received a one-year STTR Phase I grant of $225,000 from the National Science Foundation (NSF) to support development of a novel solid-state hydrogen storage system based on catalytically-modified porous silicon. . . .

Schubert said the NSF grant will allow Green Fortress Engineering to achieve two goals:

    Performing the first gaseous recharge of a solid-state hydrogen storage media, which will serve as validation of the theoretical work leading up to the grant; and

    Explore the pathway to lower-cost starting materials, including polycrystalline silicon and metallurgical-grade silicon.
Earlier work by Schubert, including a series of patents, used porous silicon as the storage material; strategic placement of catalyst atoms facilitate moderate-temperature and moderate-pressure re-charging of hydrogen. Laboratory tests showed storage up to 6.6% by weight when using porous silicon as a solid-state hydrogen storage media.

    Using these less-expensive materials could make solid-state hydrogen storage available to every economic market.

    —Peter Schubert. . . .

It will probably take solid-state storage like this to make H2 storage economically viable, and it also removes the extra energy cost of high-pressure compression (see below). I don't expect to see solid-state storage for cars before Gen 2, possibly gen 3 FCEVs.

For those interested in home H2 production, via GCR:
SimpleFuel home hydrogen fuel dispenser wins $1 million DoE prize
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... -doe-prize

. . . The SimpleFuel team—actually a collaboration of three separate companies—won the prize, first offered in November 2014, for its hydrogen home-fueling station. . . .

In the case of the home hydrogen station, the device is an 8-foot tall box somewhat bigger than a pair of large refrigerators. It uses the home's electricity supply to electrolyze water, producing hydrogen fuel that it delivers to the car's storage tanks at a pressure of up to 700 bar (10,000 psi). The electrolyzer stores the hydrogen in the device's 5-kilogram carbon-fiber tank, while the oxygen is vented into the atmosphere. A 1-kg refill takes 15 minutes or less, according to the Simple team. . . .

We weren't able to find any discussion of the energy balance and carbon footprint of SimpleFuel's home hydrogen-fueling station on the various pages of the competition website. . . .

Nor was there a discussion of projected cost for such a station, although the cost of high-pressure compressors is the limiting factor of the viability of small natural-gas fueling stations. . . .

It occurs to me that a home H2 refueling system probably doesn't need to provide 700 bar refueling. For local use, I'd think 350 bar would provide plenty of range (given the typical 300+ mile range of current FCEVs @ 700 bar), while reducing the cost of the compressor and the energy to power it. You'd need the full 700 bar capability at public stations for trips. Of course, we (the public) simply have no idea what such a system costs at the moment (or the other operational info), and it may be that going from 700 bar to 350 bar would only reduce the cost from "billionaires only need apply" to "multi-millionaires welcome."

[Update] Found this:
In discussions about future plans beyond the H-Prize competition, the team projected that the initial launch of their product line, which would be able to deliver 5-10 one kg fills per day at five minutes per fill, will cost $200,000 or less, depending on the rate of hydrogen production, dispense pressure and manufacturing volume. . . .
http://www.hydrogenprize.org/simplefuel ... t-success/

So, businesses plus Hollywood celebrities and the like initially, but mass production and other measures could bring costs down considerably.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6626
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:18 pm

Via GCC:
GM and Honda to establish industry-first $85M joint fuel cell system manufacturing operation in Michigan
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/01 ... honda.html

General Motors and Honda are establishing the auto industry’s first manufacturing joint venture—Fuel Cell System Manufacturing, LLC, FCSM)—to mass-produce an advanced hydrogen fuel cell system that will be used in future products from each company. Over the past three years, GM and Honda have been collaborating on next-generation fuel cell and hydrogen storage systems, aiming at commercialization in the 2020 time frame. (Earlier post.)

The co-developed new generation stack builds on the compact size and high-performance of Honda’s current generation stack in the Clarity (earlier post) by achieving significant cost reductions. FCSM will operate within GM’s existing battery pack manufacturing facility site in Brownstown, Michigan, south of Detroit. Mass production of fuel cell systems is expected to begin around 2020 and create nearly 100 new jobs. The companies are making equal investments totaling $85 million in the joint venture. . . .

    With the next-generation fuel cell system, GM and Honda are making a dramatic step toward lower cost, higher-volume fuel cell systems. Precious metals have been reduced dramatically and a fully cross-functional team is developing advanced manufacturing processes simultaneously with advances in the design. The result is a lower-cost system that is a fraction of the size and mass.

    —Charlie Freese, GM executive director of Global Fuel Cell Business . . . .

Via FuelCellsWorks:
Panasonic:Demonstration Experiments Begin for the Hydrogen Fuel Cell of the Future – Device Development Is Also Accelerated
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/panason ... -developm/

. . . Panasonic is attempting to make breakthroughs in 3 key areas – “production,” “storage,” and “use” – to realize technologies that enable the use of hydrogen at low costs. For example, to create hydrogen, Panasonic is currently working on photocatalytic technology that splits water when sunlight hits the catalytic agent and using highly efficient non-metal electrodes. With respect to storage, Panasonic is conducting research on high-density storage technologies.

Hideo Ohara, General Manager of Hydrogen And Energy Research Laboratory, Advanced Research Division of Panasonic stated, “The biggest challenge when it comes to building a hydrogen society is costs. And the entire value chain must be carbon free. Eventually, we hope that people will be able to create and store hydrogen at home using photocatalytic technology. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6626
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:06 pm

Via GCC:
Toyota begins using fuel cell forklifts at Motomachi plant
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/01 ... oyota.html

Toyota Motor Corporation has begun using two fuel cell forklifts, which have been manufactured by Toyota Industries Corporation, at its Motomachi Plant located in Toyota City. . . .

In order to reduce CO2 emissions from its plants, Toyota intends to replace existing conventional forklifts with fuel cell forklifts. This will start with the Motomachi Plant, with two units being adopted in 2017, followed by about 20 units in 2018, and eventually, reaching the goal of 170 to 180 units by around 2020. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
TonyWilliams
Posts: 9970
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:28 pm

Mass production of fuel cell systems is expected to begin around 2020 and create nearly 100 new jobs. The companies are making equal investments totaling $85 million in the joint venture. . . .


"100 jobs" and "mass production" do not compute.

It is hard to imagine exactly what they're trying to sell, when we know exactly where the infrastructure will be by 2020... a few northeast CARB-ZEV states plus California.

That makes it sound to me like Honda has now added General Motors with a plan hoping to meet CARB-ZEV compliance with at least one or more hydrogen products in the 2020 to 2030 time frame, in addition to the EV cars they both should have then. We know exactly where the hydrogen cars need to be sold because nobody's going to buy one in Nebraska or North Dakota with no place to refuel them. They also aren't going to pay the equivalent of MORE than the current cost of traditional refueling with robust choices of places to do that refueling.

Yippie :-(

finman100
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:42 am
Delivery Date: 06 Jun 2014
Location: Albany, OR

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:35 am

"In order to reduce CO2 emissions from its plants".

Okay that SOUNDS nice, but the fuel they are using? Where will this come from? Fossil sources perhaps? Hmmm, seems it SHOULD matter how u actually MAKE the fuel. Does it appear out of magical thin air?

Nevermind, laws of physics be damned, it's green energy and the future! Yay for everyone. This will be the greatest thing since battery electric vehicles...someday.

Does no one do the math at GM and Toyota? Is the system of ZEV credits so stupid that one can ignore all energy inputs to prop up hydrogen versus battery electrics? The answer really leans to yes.
Albany, Oregon
2014 Silver SV with charge/LED package. June 2014, I'm in the EV game!
30,200 miles
19.1 kWh on 100% charge (56ish Ah)
4.2 miles/kWh average
Best trip: all of 'em. They're all no-gas!

GRA
Posts: 6626
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:14 pm

All via GCC:
H2ME has 100 fuel cell vehicles on the road in Germany, France and UK
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/02 ... -h2me.html

Hydrogen Mobility Europe (H2ME), a multi-country, multi-partner project. . . announced that it has deployed its first 100 fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) in Germany, France and the UK.

Sixty Symbio Renault Kangoo ZE-H2 range-extended fuel cell vans have been deployed in the UK and France, supporting the development of a network of hydrogen refuelling stations in those markets. . . .

In addition, Daimler has deployed 40 B-Class F-CELL vehicles under H2ME in Germany. . . .

Under H2ME, eight European countries are addressing the actions required to make the hydrogen mobility sector ready for market. The largest-scale project of its kind, H2ME will:

    Perform large-scale market tests of hydrogen refuelling infrastructure;

    Deploy hundreds of passenger and commercial fuel cell electric vehicles operated in real-world customer applications; and

    Demonstrate the system benefits generated by using electrolytic hydrogen solutions in grid operations.

In the coming years, the H2ME project will deploy partners’ next-generation FCEVs, including: Symbio’s next-generation FC RE-EV (Fuel Cell Range Extender Electric Vehicle) vans and Symbio Fuel Cell range-extended trucks; Honda’s second-generation FCEV; and Daimler’s next-generation Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL, which includes the additional energy source of a large lithium-ion battery and will feature external charging by plug-in technology for the first time.

In total, more than 1,400 FCEVs will be deployed as part of the H2ME project throughout the UK, France, Germany, the Netherlands and Scandinavia. . . .

This €170 million demonstration project is co-funded with €67 million from the Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (FCH JU), a public-private partnership supporting fuel cell and hydrogen energy technologies in Europe. . . .


voestalpine, Siemens & VERBUND building one of the world’s largest electrolysis plants for H2 production; EU-funded H2FUTURE
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/02 ... uture.html

. . . The project partners will work and research cooperatively on implementing an innovative hydrogen demonstration plant at the voestalpine site in Linz. The green hydrogen generated there will be fed directly into the internal gas network, allowing the testing of the use of hydrogen in various process stages of steel production. . . .

    The hydrogen produced has a multitude of applications, for example as a raw material in the industry—as is seen in Linz, but also as a fuel for mobility and as an energy carrier in electricity and gas supply. This CO2-heavy hydrogen can be replaced by hydrogen from electrolysis, greatly improving the emission balance resulting from industrial processes. Moreover, if the electrolysis is undertaken with electricity from renewable sources, the hydrogen production is virtually climate-neutral.

    —Wolfgang Hesoun, CEO of Siemens Austria

VERBUND, the project coordinator, will provide electricity from renewable energy sources and is responsible for development of grid-relevant services. Already today, VERBUND generates around 96% of its electricity from renewable energy sources, primarily hydropower. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 5329
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:21 pm

Replying to finman100's post in the Mirai thread:
finman100 wrote:Where oh where do the laws of Physics get to be ignored?
Yes, it boggles the mind. Of course you cannot ignore the laws of physics for very long before they catch up with you. Yet politicians and economists constantly try to ignore or even supersede the laws of physics, which inevitably leads to massive problems. I have carefully detailed the efficiency issues involved with having TWO chemical reactions separated in space and time combined with the losses which you MUST endure in order to achieve the ONE benefit of H2 FCVs: fast refueling. Li-ion batteries achieve near-unity efficiency by avoiding oxidation and reduction reactions. (Intercalation does not carry any significant efficiency cost.) I have NEVER seen any evidence that we know how to achieve theoretical efficiency on ANY oxidation or reduction reactions. Even if we did, the hydrolysis reaction would need a CONSTANT source of heat to achieve 120% efficiency and the fuel cell could NEVER achieve more than 83% efficiency.

As it stands today, the efficiency ratio between BEVs and FCVs is around 3X. In order to electrify 80% of this country's automobiles using BEVs, we need to INCREASE overall electricity production by about 20%. To do the same with H2 FCVs, the increase is over 50%! We are struggling to even make a very small fraction of our electricity using renewables, let alone replace the entire lot AND grow it by any amount.

Simply put, efficiency is KING. In power and power electronics engineering, that is AXIOMATIC.
finman100 wrote:Electric transport for the masses is here now and growing and it doesn't involve hydrogen.
Precisely. For the average annual mileage, add SEVEN 300Wp PV modules to home's roof for each BEV. That's 14 PV modules for the average two-car home. Cost: less than $10,000 PER VEHICLE (including the EVSE) Such an expenditure will provide fuel for over 25 years.

Now, let's do that same calculation for a home with two FCVs: Each car will require refueling equipment which costs about $250,000 and approximately 21 300Wp PV modules. Total cost is about $275,000 PER H2 FCV. Except for the PV, the equipment has a life expectancy of about 10 years.

So renters such as GRA, instead of understanding that the BEV revolution needs to happen TODAY in single family homes, want to externalize the excessive costs of BOTH the FCV vehicle AND the H2 refueling infrastructure. To what end? One can only imagine why anyone would ever want to propose the most damaging "solution" imaginable. Yet he comes here daily to tell anyone who will listen how "limited" BEVs are.

Yes, BEVs ARE the endgame. Always have been and always will be. H2 is an utter distraction to help keep the fossil-fuel industry alive along with the centralized control which goes along with it.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 3K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 6626
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:05 pm

You can see my post responding to finman100's in the Mirai thread, even though they (and Reg's) just repeat the same old arguments. Via GCC:
Ballard signs $25M deal with Broad-Ocean for manufacture & sales of 30 and 85 kW fuel cell systems in China
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/02 ... llard.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

finman100
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:42 am
Delivery Date: 06 Jun 2014
Location: Albany, OR

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Feb 16, 2017 5:13 pm

...because repeating the hard truth sucks, but I'm willing to do so.

How do you rectify all the hard numbers of reality? You know, those of science and physics that prove, without a doubt, hydrogen doesn't work?

I never can figure how people ignore these things. Well, if your livelihood depends on it sure. Or politics. or oil/gas industry. Disruption is gonna be eye-opening.

Keep repeating.

http://tonyseba.com/toyota-vs-tesla-can-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-compete-with-electric-vehicles/

An oldie but a goodie.

Now where did they put that local H2 station near me? Not yet? Guess I can continue with the more efficient, handy power outlet and my EV. C'mon hydrogen, I ain't got all my life to wait...
Albany, Oregon
2014 Silver SV with charge/LED package. June 2014, I'm in the EV game!
30,200 miles
19.1 kWh on 100% charge (56ish Ah)
4.2 miles/kWh average
Best trip: all of 'em. They're all no-gas!

Return to “Business / Economy and Politics”