EVDrive
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:15 pm

I'm pretty disappointed by the massive financial resources states like California are wasting on FCEV Hydrogen filling stations. In California we had 244,963 plug in cars and a little over 1082 Fuel cell cars sold by the end of 2016. And remember carmakers told us in the 1990's we didn't need Pure Battery EV's because Hydrogen cars were ready for prime time and so much better than pure EV's. Imagine if we had all believed the car industries lies and promises on Hydrogen cars, and nobody (Nissan, Tesla, GM) built an EV.

http://www.ev-volumes.com/news/usa-plug ... -for-2016/

It's no contest at this point and obvious that Hydrogen fuel cell cars are so far behind, however, as California wastes money for million dollar hydrogen fueling stations, EV drivers still can't CHAdeMO fast charge across the state on Interstate 5. Oregon and Washington built out a fast charging corridor years ago on their sections of I5. I'm tired of this Hydrogen scam and waste of taxpayer money that is slowing down the adoption of EV's and diverting my hard earned money to a wasteful fantasy.

I find it interesting that the biggest supporter of FCEV's on this site hasn't bought one. If there so great, buy or lease one. Put your money where your mouth is, as I always do. I've bought 3 pure EV's over the last 7 years, that's how much I support the pure EV industry. I plan to by my 4th EV in the next 6 months, the Model 3.
- SF Bay Area
- 2011 Leaf traded in at 46,000 miles, 3 years, lost 1 bar
- Upgraded to 2014 Rav4EV with Quickchargepower.com CHAdeMO port, 53,000 miles
- Tesla Model 3 reserved

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:48 pm

EVDrive wrote:<snip>I find it interesting that the biggest supporter of FCEV's on this site hasn't bought one. If there so great, buy or lease one. Put your money where your mouth is, as I always do. I've bought 3 pure EV's over the last 7 years, that's how much I support the pure EV industry. I plan to by my 4th EV in the next 6 months, the Model 3.

Assuming the above refers to me, I'm glad to see that you referred to me as a supporter rather than an enthusiast, as the difference to me is critical. I've stated numerous times here and elsewhere why I haven't bought one (leased to be accurate), or any PEV. They remain too expensive, aren't yet offered with the body type/size/features I want, the infrastructure is still too limited to meet my particular needs, and I have no desire to throw money away as an early adopter - BTDT. I had hopes for the Model Y, but if Elon sticks to his plan to give it Falcon Wing doors that's out too, even if I didn't reject it for the lack of physical control knobs for the HVAC system and radio.

I'll have to see if the next gen Hyundai FC CUV, the infrastructure and the prices get to where they need to be, and hopefully we should also start to see some affordable long-range BEV AWD CUVs in the next few years. In the meantime, I'll continue to walk/ride my bike/use electric-powered public transit for all local and most regional trips, and restrict my ICE car use to road trips, where neither charging or H2 is usually available now (although Tesla's getting there).

However, the ideal for me, at least in my current situation, would be the advent of widespread, low cost car-sharing and rentals using ZEVs (autonomous eventually) with ubiquitous infrastructure, so that I could realistically say farewell to car ownership.
Last edited by GRA on Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
Gold Member
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:41 pm

How do you service a hydrogen fuel-cell car at a dealer?
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/111 ... t-a-dealer

Hilarious. I'd seen all the extra complexity on hydrogen FCEVs over EVs starting at Alt Car Expo 2012, but this sort of stuff doesn't surprise me that much.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:59 pm

cwerdna wrote:How do you service a hydrogen fuel-cell car at a dealer?
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/111 ... t-a-dealer

Hilarious. I'd seen all the extra complexity on hydrogen FCEVs over EVs starting at Alt Car Expo 2012, but this sort of stuff doesn't surprise me that much.

Already linked back a page.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:30 pm

Via GCC:
Project shows maritime fuel cell generator can increase energy efficiency by up to 30% at part load; reliability and cost issues
22 July 2017
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07 ... andia.html

A recent project demonstrated a 100 kW fuel cell generator with 72 kg of hydrogen storage for marine applications. Project goals were to demonstrate the use of the generator in the maritime environment, identify areas requiring additional research and development, analyze the business case, and address regulatory and other market barriers. . . .

The generator was designed and built by Hydrogenics with safety and regulatory reviews by the Hydrogen Safety Panel, US Coast Guard, and the American Bureau of Shipping. Project partner Young Brothers operated the generator for 10 months powering refrigerated containers in Honolulu, Hawaii.

    Although fuel cells have been used in many successful applications, they have not been technically or commercially validated in the port environment. One opportunity to do so was identified in Honolulu Harbor at the Young Brothers Ltd. (YB) wharf. At this facility, barges sail regularly to and from neighbor islands and containerized diesel generators provide power for the reefers while on the dock and on the barge during transport, nearly always at part load. Due to inherent efficiency characteristics of fuel cells and diesel generators, switching to a hydrogen fuel cell power generator was found to have potential emissions and cost savings.

    Based on this potential benefit, Young Brothers agreed to host a hydrogen fuel cell generator and utilize it in the same way they use their existing diesel generators, powering reefers on the dock and on interisland barges. The project benefits outside of Young Brothers include the lowering of technological and business risk for future adopters of the technology by demonstrating the satisfactory use of the generator in the port environment and by feeding back to the DOE R&D programs, analyzing the real- world business case, as well as addressing regulatory and other market barriers to widespread adoption.

    —“Maritime Fuel Cell Generator Project”

The generator unit consists of a 20-foot ISO standard “hi­cube” shipping container and contains the proton exchange membrane fuel cell rack, power inverter, ultracapacitors for short term transient loading, cooling system, hydrogen storage, and system controller and data acquisition equipment.

The system contains 72 kg of hydrogen at 350 bar and has a rated power of 100 kW, 240 VAC 3-phase, which can be divided among 10 plugs to power up to 10 reefers at a time. The design of the generator was reviewed by the US Coast Guard, American Bureau of Shipping, and the Hydrogen Safety Panel to ensure safety and compliance with regulations.

The generator was filled with hydrogen provided by Hickam Air Force Base without charge . . . When fueling was needed, the generator was loaded onto a chassis (wheeled frame trailer) and trucked to Hickam, about 7 miles from Young Brothers, where the station operator would perform the fill in about 20-30 minutes. The generator was trucked back to Young Brothers and off-loaded for continued use. Each of the eight fills during the deployment period was conducted smoothly and without any problems, dispensing a total of 428 kg into the generator.

From August 2015 to June 2016, Young Brothers used the generator on 52 different days for a total of 278 hours. It averaged 29.4 kW (gross) during this period for a total energy generation output of 7,285 kWh and achieved a 5-minute continuous peak power of 91.3 kW (gross). Its net energy efficiency ranged from 36% to 54% over the load range of 16% to 62%.

By comparison, the net efficiency of a comparable diesel generator efficiency is from 25% to 34% in this same load range. Using no diesel fuel and producing zero emissions at the point of use, during the demonstration period, the fuel cell generator displaced 865 gallons of diesel fuel, more than 16 MT of CO2 emissions, and avoided nearly 150 combined kilograms of criteria pollutants (NOx, CO, HC, PM, and SOx) as compared to an existing Young Brothers 350 kW Tier 3 diesel generator.

The Sandia report noted that the deployment experienced numerous technical issues with the generator that limited its use. The primary technical issue during the deployment was an inconsistent startup which was attributed to a communication problem between the overall system controller, inverter, and fuel cell rack. This led to problems with draining of the startup battery, and the overall result was many aborted attempted starts and non-use until the problem could be identified and fixed.

The generator’s fuel cells also experienced higher-than-anticipated consumption of DI water, which was exacerbated by the high ambient temperature along with a small DI water reservoir, causing the operators to have to fill the reservoir more than expected. The technical lessons learned from the deployment will be used by Hydrogenics to modify this generator for subsequent testing as well as to improve next generation products.

Analysis showed that even with fuel cell costs reaching the DOE target of $50/kW, the capital cost of the generator system is projected to remain three-times higher than today’s comparable diesel generator due to the balance of plant. Further, while this demonstration enjoyed free fuel from the Hickam station, that will not be the case in true commercial adoption. The current delta in hydrogen costs (high) and diesel costs (low) is expected to significantly decrease in the future as hydrogen costs decrease and diesel costs increase, but the current differential hinders the ability of today’s fuel cell systems to achieve cost parity with today’s diesel systems. . . .

Direct link to Sandia Report: https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2017/07/f35/fcto_maritime_fc_generator_2017.pdf
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7579
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:49 pm

Via GCC:
Japan launches first global hydrogen supply chain demo project; liquid organic hydrogen carrier (LOHC) technology
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07 ... ahead.html

Four Japanese companies—Chiyoda, Mitsubishi, Mitsui and Nippon Yusen Kabushiki Kaisha—have launched the “Advanced Hydrogen Energy Chain Association for Technology Development”(AHEAD) along with the world’s first Global Hydrogen Supply Chain Demonstration Project.

The project, a subsidized “Technology Development Project to establish Hydrogen Society/Technology Development for the Utilization of Large Scale Hydrogen Energy”, is funded by the National Research and Development Agency, the New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organization (NEDO), and demonstrates the use of liquid organic chemical hydrides in the hydrogen supply chain.

The project entails building a hydrogenation plant in Brunei Darussalam and a dehydrogenation plant in Kawasaki’s coastal region of Japan using Chiyoda’s SPERA Hydrogen Technology. Hydrogen will be sourced in Brunei and transported by ship to Kawasaki in liquid form at ambient temperature and pressure. Hydrogen gas will then be extracted from the liquid in Kawasaki and supplied to consumers. . . .

Dem/Val stage and a long way from commercialization, but interesting. The critical issue will be the energy used in conversion of H2 to/from Methylcyclohexane at each end. If that's relatively small, the ability to move a liquid at ambient pressure/temperature could really reduce total energy use of H2 transport/storage as well as handling costs.

Direct link to the paper (in somewhat awkward English) describing the methodology:
Development of large-scale H2 storage and transportation technology
with Liquid Organic Hydrogen Carrier (LOHC)
https://www.chiyoda-corp.com/technology/files/Joint%20GCC-JAPAN%20Environment%20Symposia%20in%202013.pdf
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:20 pm

Via GCC:
Two new H2 stations bring total in Germany to 32
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07 ... 31-h2.html

. . . After the opening of stations in Wiesbaden and Frankfurt in June, Daimler, Shell and Linde have now commissioned two more hydrogen stations in Sindelfingen and Pforzheim. This brings the number of fueling options for fuel-cell cars in Baden-Württemberg to nine, making the federal state Germany’s leading H2 region. . . .

Altogether, the German government contributed €1.8 million (US$2.1 million) to the construction of the two new stations. By 2018, the plan is to have 100 filling stations. As many as 400 service stations are planned by 2023 as part of the H2 Mobility Joint Venture. . . .

Sindelfingen and Pforzheim each have the capacity to serve 40 hydrogen-powered cars per day from now on.

The new sites are conveniently located on the A8 (Pforzheim) and A81 (Sindelfingen) motorways, at key intersection points for traffic routes in southwestern Germany. The Sindelfingen H2 station is located near the historic Daimler vehicle production plant, which houses the company’s research and development center, whose responsibilities include overseeing the development of the next generation of Mercedes-Benz fuel cell vehicles based on the GLC.

Daimler is the builder of the two hydrogen stations; their H2 filling technology comes from the technology company Linde. Both are located at Shell service stations. All three companies are partners in the H2 Mobility joint venture, which is working to expanding the hydrogen infrastructure in Germany.

Daimler AG will present its latest generation of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles based on the Mercedes-Benz GLC later this year.

Other hydrogen stations are currently at the planning stage or under construction in Germany. This year, for example, filling stations in Wendlingen, Karlsruhe, Munich, Bremen and Kassel are to follow. . . .


Also GCC:
Toyota Mobility Foundation launches research program to support innovative hydrogen energy solutions
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/07 ... 1-tmf.html

The Toyota Mobility Foundation (TMF) has launched a research program to spur the development of a “hydrogen society”—envisioned as a set of communities with integrated, green-energy networks powered by mini-hydrogen plants that aim to create a carbon-free, hydrogen distribution system. TMF has begun soliciting research proposals under this new program.

TMF will emphasize innovations in the generation; storage and transport; and applications of hydrogen when screening the submitted proposals. A panel of hydrogen and energy experts from universities and public-sector research organizations will review the proposals and oversee their selection. . . .

The total envisioned budget is approximately ¥100 million (approximately US$890,000); TMF anticipates 10-20 projects, with up to ¥10 million (approximately US$89,000) per project. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:00 pm

Via GCR:
Hawaii to get hydrogen fueling station; Toyota Mirai leases to follow
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/111 ... -to-follow

Hawaii is now getting its first hydrogen fueling station to enable fuel-cell vehicles to operate on Oahu, the second-most populated island and home to Honolulu.

Governor David Ige and officials at Servco Pacific—which owns four Toyota and two Lexus dealerships in Hawaii—recently broke ground for a hydrogen station at Servco's headquarters in Mapunapuna. It will be able to fuel up to five hydrogen vehicles a day.

The hydrogen fuel will be produced on site by electrolyzing water to split hydrogen from oxygen; that process can use electricity from any source, including renewable energy. . . .

Hardly seems worth it for a capacity of just 5 cars/day, but I guess this is more of a test to see if there's a market.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:22 pm

Via GCC:
Power-to-gas trial to inject hydrogen into Australia’s gas grid; A$5M award to AquaHydrex
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/08 ... 9-ptg.html

. . . On behalf of the Australian Government, ARENA has provided A$5 million (US$4 million) in funding to Wollongong-based AquaHydrex to develop commercially its new class of electrolyzer to produce cheap hydrogen from splitting water. In partnership with Australian Gas Networks (AGN), which owns the gas distribution network in South Australia, AquaHydrex will design and build an electrolyzer pilot plant to trial injecting a small amount of hydrogen into the South Australian gas grid in a process known as “power-to-gas”. . . .

ARENA Chief Executive Ivor Frischknecht said this demonstration is the first Australian trial to test power-to-gas that will see hydrogen being injected into the gas network.

    Hydrogen can be injected directly into the natural gas network without modification at levels of at least 10%, with some experts recently suggesting levels closer to 30% are viable to supplement our gas needs. Depending on the material the gas pipeline is made out of, the network can support up to 100% hydrogen in due course, once appropriate regulatory transition and appliance modifications are implemented. When hydrogen burns, it produces only water vapor and no carbon dioxide.

    There is huge untapped potential in power-to-gas to convert surplus renewable energy to hydrogen and use our existing gas network infrastructure for long-term, safe, reliable energy storage. In the future, there will be increasing amounts of surplus renewable energy when it is sunny or windy.

    —Ivor Frischknecht. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7579
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:50 pm

Via GCC:
ARB report: 1,600 fuel cell vehicles in California, 29 stations active; need to accelerate station deployment
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/08 ... bfcev.html

Note that the 1,600 FCEVs (actually 1,609 registered) was as of April 5th, 2017, and the total should be around 2,100 now.

As of 5 April 2017, California has more than 1,600 fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) with active registrations with the California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV), according to the 2017 issue of its Annual Evaluation of Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle Deployment and Hydrogen Fuel Station Network Development released by the California Air Resources Board (ARB). This represents a net addition of 1,300 FCEVs (1,600 currently registered vs. 331 at the same time last year.

The report also identified 29 currently Open-Retail hydrogen fueling stations from as far south as San Diego, to the coastline in Santa Barbara, and as far to the northeast as Truckee. This represents an increase of 9 fueling stations since June 2016.

In addition to pre-commercial FCEV models, there are now three commercial-era production models on California’s roads, with at least three more expected in the near future.

ARB projects that a total of 13,400 FCEVs will be driving in California by 2020, and 37,400 by 2023. These projections represent slower growth than in earlier estimates (37,400 FCEVs are now projected on-the-road in 2023, compared to the previous estimate of 34,300 by 2021), but it is ARB’s understanding and estimation that they are largely in reaction to missed projections for the pace of hydrogen fueling station development.

ARB expects continued expansion of the fueling market, and corresponding growth in deployed FCEVs, to continue throughout the rest of 2017 and beyond. The total number of Open-Retail stations may increase to 34 by the end of this year. The stations that may open between now and the close of the year will expand fueling coverage in the San Francisco Bay Area, communities surrounding Torrance, and within the counties of Riverside and San Bernardino. . . .

Direct link to report: https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/a ... t_2017.pdf

Links to this and previous (2014-2016) annual reports can be found in the first post of the EV Bibliography topic, under "Hydrogen and Fuel Cells: http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9506
Last edited by GRA on Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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