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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:09 am

It appears that natural gas cars are now dead (but trucks still have nat-gas options).

Hydrogen is made primarily from natural gas and electricity.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:36 am

H2 production

http://www.planete-energies.com/en/medi ... production

Hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe, found in the Sun, other stars and the gas planets in our solar system. It occurs naturally on Earth, but not in large enough quantities to be produced cost-competitively. It therefore needs to be separated from other elements.

On Earth, hydrogen is generally found in compounds with other elements. The most common are carbon, with which it forms methane (CH4), and oxygen, with which it forms water (H2O). How is pure hydrogen made? To obtain pure hydrogen for industrial applications, it must be separated from the chemical elements to which it is bound.

Today, 95% of hydrogen is produced either from wood or from fossil fuels, such as natural gas and oil. Three types of production process are currently in use:

1) The most common hydrogen production process is natural gas reforming — sometimes called steam methane reforming because it uses high-temperature steam. When exposed to steam and heat, the carbon (C) atoms of methane (CH4) separate. After two successive reactions, they reform separately to produce hydrogen (H2) and carbon dioxide (carbon dioxide (co2)). This operation therefore requires natural gas.

2) Another process is charcoal gasification1. Charcoal consists mainly of carbon and water. Burned in a reactor at a very high temperature of between 1,200 and 1,500 °C, the charcoal releases gas that separates and reforms to produce hydrogen (H2) and carbon monoxide (CO).

3) Hydrogen can also be produced using electricity, through electrolysis of water. An electric current is used to split water (H2O) into oxygen (O2) and hydrogen (H2). This method is not as cost-effective as using fossil fuels. Hydrogen produced by steam methane reforming costs around $2 per kilogram at the plant gate (excluding distribution costs), triple the cost of natural gas. Hydrogen produced using electrolysis is currently around four times more expensive, even before the cost of the electricity required is factored in.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:47 pm

Reading the 2017 CARB annual report, the reasons for delayed station openings are explained as follows:

Current understanding of hydrogen fueling station development progress indicates a station
deployment pace one year slower than previously expected. In the 2016 Annual Evaluation, 38
stations were expected to be complete by the end of 2016; a similar number of stations (37) are
now expected to be open by the end of 2017. Similarly, 50 stations were previously expected by
the end of 2017; the updated projection is 42 by the close of 2018.

This shift in expectations is
indicative of ongoing difficulties with particular stations. Difficulties typically center on either
securing a mutually acceptable lease agreement between the station developer and the host gas
station’s owner and/or operator and protracted permitting and planning approval processes. In
a small number of cases, there have been difficulties with equipment procurement or the station
has undergone multiple rounds of tuning in order to complete the station testing and validation
process. GFO 15-605 introduced the enforcement of critical milestones to help ensure these types
of delays are prevented with newly-funded stations.

Between November of 2016 and March of
2017 the Energy Commission issued Stop Work Orders on nine stations funded in previous years
due to station developers’ lack of significant progress in construction of the stations and the
state’s fiscal deadline to utilize the funds. Station developers were required to provide a viable
and reasonable plan to complete station construction to potentially lift the Stop Work Orders. The
Energy Commission has lifted the Stop Work Order for the Mountain View station and is currently
considering whether to proceed with the Emeryville station. Completion of the Orange, Rohnert
Park, and North Hollywood stations remains uncertain. These five stations have been included in
the projections of this report. However, the Chino, Encinitas, Los Altos, and Newport
Beach upgrade (moved from the former Foster City station) are not proceeding since viable and
reasonable plans for completion were not received; hence, these stations are not included in
projections. Figure ES3 shows the latest expectation for cumulative hydrogen fueling network
development for all funded stations. . . .

1 Three Non-Retail stations currently have plans for upgrade to retail. Harbor City closed in Q4, 2016. Years 2014
and 2015 include a historical data correction. Three stations and one upgrade to retail no longer included due to
lack of substantial progress. CSULA included from 2014 on in this figure.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:10 pm

Via GCC:
DOE issues $6M request for proposals for H2@Scale projects
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/08 ... 1-doe.html

The US Department of Energy (DOE) has issued a request for proposals (H2_AT_SCALE_CRADA_CALL) for research projects that address the Hydrogen at Scale (H2@Scale) concept (earlier post), which enables wide-scale production and use of hydrogen to address issues such as grid resiliency, energy storage and security, domestic job creation, and domestic leadership in innovation.

In 2016, DOE national laboratories identified the potential of hydrogen to decarbonize deeply a multitude of sectors in a proposal termed “H2@Scale”. Preliminary analysis performed by the national laboratories on the H2@Scale concept indicated that nearly a 50% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions is possible by 2050 via such large-scale hydrogen production and use.

Through this request from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), the DOE’s Fuel Cell Technologies Office (FCTO) seeks to double the impact of its funding in the applied research portion of its portfolio, with a focus on techno-economic modeling and analysis; materials compatibility R&D; grid simulation and electrolyzer testing; materials and component manufacturing R&D; development and use of co-products from hydrogen production; and performance verification of hydrogen equipment to inform R&D. . . .

The H2@ Scale concept aims to develop transformational technologies that reduce the cost of hydrogen production and distribution, diversify the feedstock available for economic hydrogen production, enhance the flexibility of the power grid, reduce emissions through novel uses of low-cost hydrogen, generate jobs, and provide global technology leadership for export of next-generation energy solutions. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:50 pm

Via GCC:
ULEMCo to offer a fuel cell range extender module for Nissan e-NV200 electric van
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/08 ... lemco.html

. . . With the combination of the on-board hydrogen storage and fuel cell module, the van will have a range of more than 150 miles (241 km) when laden, satisfying the range requirements of most average daily delivery operations for this size of van.

ULEMCo specifically engineered the module to provide additional energy to the vehicle so that the operational practicality of the full electric vehicle can be widened to cope with seasonal range variation, working lifetime, and the impact on range when fully loaded—all things that currently limit the range of duties an operator can target for existing for zero-emission commercial vehicles.

Using a 12kW fuel cell and 1.6 kg/day on-board hydrogen storage capability, the van will have almost twice the range of the standard e-NV200, measured to NEDC standards, without sacrificing load space capacity.

ULEMCo’s fuel cell RX power module will be roof mounted, and provide motive power via the battery to support the drive load requirements for the base van. . . .

No details on price.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7359
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:29 pm

Via GCC:
EU NELLI project delivers new generation solid-oxide fuel cell; efficient and lower cost
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/08 ... ellhi.html

The EU-funded three-year NELLHI project has concluded after successfully developing a new stack design of solid oxide fuel cells, from an all-European supply chain. NELLHI combined European know-how in single cells, coatings, sealing, and stack design to produce a novel high-performance 1 kW SOFC stack along with with the proof of concept of a 10 kWe SOFC stack. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:50 am

Working on more economical production of clean hydrogen:

https://futurism.com/researchers-can-no ... uid-metal/
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

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@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

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6.72 kW Array

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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:17 am

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Working on more economical production of clean hydrogen:

https://futurism.com/researchers-can-no ... uid-metal/
Interesting article. Thanks!

But I can do without the author stating as fact the extremely doubtful future role of hydrogen in our world vis-a-vis BEVs:
futurism wrote:Cars with hydrogen fuel cells carry hydrogen and take in oxygen from the air, which a catalyst combines to produce electricity. The problem is, these aren’t as easy to manufacture as the batteries in EVs.

That’s about to change, though, ...
Sorry, but that is not "about the change".
futurism wrote:“The recent shift to electric cars is irreversible,” Datta said. The next step is hydrogen fuel cells, which can offer a longer range and are easier to refuel than recharging batteries.
Sorry, but this is the BIG LIE about hydrogen. It is not, and never will be, the "next step". A low-efficiency solution will NEVER replace a near-unity solution in the energy-constrained world in which we live. The best it can hope to achieve is some applications where batteries fall short. We have repeatedly identified some of these in this thread, not the least of which is seasonal energy storage.

But even if hydrogen reasearchers can overcome the massively lossy conversions that are associated with using hydrogen, it will still need to deal with the following issues:
1) Hydrogen cannot deliver on the promise of rapid refueling without employing rapid-cooling equipment during the refueling process. This is a lossy step in the long change of lossy steps.
2) The invention discussed in the article is needed ONLY for filtering hydrogen after it comes from fossil fuels. As such, it is not a way to replace PV->BEV with a renewable solution.
3) Hydrolysis is theoretically endothermic. If the theoretical efficiencies are to ever by approached, hydrolysis will need to be coupled with a continuous source of (high-temperature?) heat.
4) The fuel-cell reaction has a theoretical efficiency of about 83%. Ideally, that loss could be used as the source of heat for electrolysis, and perhaps we will eventually get to that point in stationary applications like seasonal energy storage, but this cannot be done in the transportation sector.
5) Important applications like seasonal energy storage can and are being addressed by technologies like ARES that not only promise to be cheaper, but that are already much closer to unity efficiency and offer much more benign environmental impacts than either H2 or batteries. Storing energy at 80% round-trip energy efficiency is actually a usable solution. The 40% round-trip efficiency of H2 from electrolysis is just a massive waste of resources.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:44 pm

Via GCC:
Shell, ITM Power to install 10MW electrolyzer for refinery hydrogen
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09 ... shell.html

Shell, together with ITM Power, plans to install a 10MW electrolyzer to produce hydrogen at the Wesseling refinery site within the Rheinland Refinery Complex. This would be the largest unit of its kind in Germany and the world’s largest PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) electrolyzer.

Today, the refinery uses approximately 180,000 tons of hydrogen per year in its various plants. The hydrogen is currently produced as a byproduct of the refining process or through natural gas reforming; electrolysis instead uses electricity to split water into the base components of hydrogen and oxygen. Electrolysis using low-cost renewable electricity could be a key technology for CO2-free hydrogen production in the Shell Rheinland Refinery. . . .

The project aims to enable the construction and operation of a large-scale 10 MW electrolyzer that can produce high-quality and CO2-free hydrogen while demonstrating technology and cost improvements through upscaling and new business applications. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:20 am

GRA wrote:Via GCC:
Shell, ITM Power to install 10MW electrolyzer for refinery hydrogen
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09 ... shell.html

Shell, together with ITM Power, plans to install a 10MW electrolyzer to produce hydrogen at the Wesseling refinery site within the Rheinland Refinery Complex.
...
Today, the refinery uses approximately 180,000 tons of hydrogen per year in its various plants.. . .
I love how they quote the electrolysis in units of "apples" and the load in units of "oranges" with the desire that many will get the impression that Shell is converting their hydrogen production from fossil fuels to hydrolysis. But that couldn't be farther from the truth.

In fact, ITM's 1-MW electrolyzer produces less than 0.5 tons per day, so ten of them would produce shy of 5 tons/day (I'm using metric tons here). With 24/7 operation, these units are capable of producing less than 1% of the required hydrogen.

But will they run continuously? We don't know. They will certainly have downtime for maintenance, like all industrial equipment, but it's not even clear that running them will be cost-effective for Shell. Perhaps Shell has arrangements with their electricity supplier to get the electricity cheaply if they allow them to shut them down during times when the grid is overloaded.

Hopefully not too many businesses will think it is a good idea to drop a load equivalent to 1000 homes onto the electrical grid in yet another feel good exercise. Trying to produce all of their hydrogen with these electrolyzers would be equivalent to plunking down a city with nearly 150,000 homes and them asking the power company to power their new "city". And that's just for a single company...
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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