GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:49 pm

Both via GCC:
Weichai Power, Bosch to partner on hydrogen fuel cells, Industry 4.0; focus on commercial vehicles
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/11/20171125-weichai.html

China-based Weichai Power, currently a diesel engine market leader in China’s heavy-duty truck and construction machinery market, and Bosch have signed a cooperation framework agreement to establish a fuel cell technology innovation and industrial chain and jointly to develop and to produce hydrogen fuel cells and related component. . . .

Weichai said it is targeting becoming an internationally competitive business leader in fuel cell commercial vehicles.


H&R GmbH & Co. KGaA inaugurates world’s largest dynamic hydrogen electrolysis plant
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/11/20171124-hur.html

H&R Ölwerke Schindler, a subsidiary of H&R GmbH & Co. KGaA, has inaugurated the world’s largest dynamic hydrogen electrolysis plant based on PEM technology. “Dynamic” means that the hydrogen electrolysis plant can take advantage of last-minute surges in electricity production, i.e. from wind turbines, to produce hydrogen. The centerpiece of the €10-million plant is a Siemens-built electrolyzer with 5 MW of electric capacity. The plant will produce several hundred tons of hydrogen per year, which will be used as a resource in refinery processes.
. . .

H&R currently uses hydrogen in its production processes to extract specialty products, such as paraffins, white oils and process oils that are then further refined into cheese rinds, lipsticks, printing inks or car tires.

    But actually, producing hydrogen from water and electricity is only the first step in our long-term plan. Long term, we want to further develop our existing plants and sites. Today, we mainly use fossil fuels as our raw materials; in the future, these will be supplemented—first from renewable sources, then long term with synthesized products manufactured in CO2-neutral processes using sustainable energy. We will use our existing plants, but at the same time we recognize our environmental responsibility and are therefore successfully reorienting the company toward sustainable solutions.

    —Niels H. Hansen, Managing Director of H&R KGaA
Currently, 2% of potential electric power is lost, because Germany occasionally produces more electricity than it consumes. As a result, solar facilities and wind turbines are shut down. In northern Germany, around 15% of potential energy is lost. . . .

I'm slightly surprised that Northern Germany is seeing that level of variable intermittent curtailment.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:14 pm

In the report that GRA linked yesterday, CARB provided a couple of interesting graphs.

In the first graph below, CARB shows that the drop in fuel cell production costs stalled around the year 2010:
Image

Of course the above image is a bit ridiculous since no one has any idea how to manufacture 500,000 fuel cells in a single year. In other words, the ACTUAL costs are likely MUCH higher than those shown. In any case, the future cost targets are not on the historical "glide slope". If CARB doesn't thing fuel cell production costs are falling, who am I to argue?

In the second graph, it can be seen that CARB's ultimate projection for hydrogen storage is quite far off from ALL technologies considered and they completely missed the box for 2015:
Image

Meanwhile, BEV costs are dropping rapidly and the top BEV vehicle ranges exceed those of the top FCEVs. On top of that, it looks like long-haul BEV trucks are poised to take over that end of the market.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K miles: Apr 14, 2013, 20K miles (55.7Ah): Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah): Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah): Feb 8, 2017, 50K miles (47.2Ah): Dec 7, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:19 pm

Via GCC:
Toyota to build first MW-scale 100% renewable power and hydrogen generation station
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/11/20171130-toyota.html

At the Los Angeles Auto Show, Toyota Motor North America announced that it will build the world’s first megawatt-scale carbonate fuel cell power generation plant with a hydrogen fueling station to support its operations at the Port of Long Beach. The Tri-Gen facility will use bio-waste sourced from California agricultural waste to generate water, electricity and hydrogen.

When it comes online in 2020, Tri-Gen will generate approximately 2.35 MW of electricity and 1.2 tons of hydrogen per day, enough to power the equivalent of about 2,350 average-sized homes and meet the daily driving needs of nearly 1,500 vehicles.

The power generation facility will be 100% renewable, supplying Toyota Logistics Services’ (TLS) operations at the Port and making them the first Toyota facility in North America to use 100% renewable power.

Tri-Gen is a key step forward in Toyota’s work to develop a hydrogen society. In addition to serving as a key proof-of-concept for 100% renewable, local hydrogen generation at scale, the facility will supply all Toyota fuel cell vehicles moving through the Port, including new deliveries of the Mirai sedan and Toyota’s Heavy Duty hydrogen fuel cell class 8 truck, known as Project Portal. (Earlier post.) To support these refueling operations, Toyota has also built one of the largest hydrogen fueling stations in the world on-site with the help of Air Liquide. . .
.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:03 pm

How much diesel fuel is required to move the bulky bio-waste to the plant?

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:33 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:How much diesel fuel is required to move the bulky bio-waste to the plant?

Presumably the intent is to use Toyota's and other companies' H2 FCEV tractors to do so once the facility is up and running. It wouldn't make sense not to, assuming they can make the round trip unrefueled, or else fueling stations exist where needed.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

smkettner
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:27 pm

I wonder what the percentage of hydrogen production the hauling would consume.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
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GetOffYourGas
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:00 am

They could always haul the biostock / fuel with a Tesla Semi ;)
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:10 pm

smkettner wrote:I wonder what the percentage of hydrogen production the hauling would consume.

As the primary purpose of introducing and ultimately requiring ZEV trucks to service the ports is to reduce local air and noise pollution (environmental justice), who cares? The main thing is to reduce diesel and other fossil-fuel emissions, whether from ships (by providing electrical hookups dockside), MHE or truck traffic.

GetOffYourGas wrote: They could always haul the biostock / fuel with a Tesla Semi ;)

Within range, sure. A 500 mile (sic) Tesla could probably make the round-trip unrecharged to Imperial Valley and back from LA/Long Beach or San Diego, but probably not the San Joaquin Valley. Wherever a BEV can meet the operational requirements at the lowest TCO, it should be the ZEV of choice.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:17 pm

GRA wrote:Wherever a BEV can meet the operational requirements at the lowest TCO, it should be the ZEV of choice.


I couldn't agree more. That subset of use cases may be smallish today, but it's growing fast.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

smkettner
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:13 pm

GRA wrote:
smkettner wrote:I wonder what the percentage of hydrogen production the hauling would consume.

As the primary purpose of introducing and ultimately requiring ZEV trucks to service the ports is to reduce local air and noise pollution (environmental justice), who cares? The main thing is to reduce diesel and other fossil-fuel emissions, whether from ships (by providing electrical hookups dockside), MHE or truck traffic.
Still it would be sad if half the production was used to haul in the fuel source.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

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