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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:27 am

TomT wrote:Well, if you never need to drive further than a round-trip from your house, I suppose that is all you need, yes... Many of us need to do more than just that, however...

And if you want to get technical, unless you are completely off the grid with your own storage, you are using the Power Company as a storage battery and they are anything but solar powered for the most part...

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Hydrogen can bomb for all I care. I'll never buy one. I can make my own fuel in my backyard. Actually, sourced from our shared hydrogen reactor 93 million miles away.


Solar or not. I can still fuel at home.

If you need more range and prefer a fuel cell, fine by me.

But 100 H stations won't be enough.
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EdmondLeaf
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:38 am

A few days ago I thought that Toyota decision to sell FC is a desperation to come up with something new that not necessarily make a lot of sense. After reading a bit, I believe there is so much development with FC, and so many ways to produce H2. I am ready to try

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:43 am

So, who will own these stations? State of CA?

What does H sell for?

Does CA also produce H?

Can CA turn a profit?
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



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drees
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:53 am

smkettner wrote:I see hydrogen as a fleet fuel to compete with NG. And I don't think it stands a chance.

Yep. And even then, there are NG fuel cells as well, not just H.

smkettner wrote:Hopefully CA will install a chademo at each hydrogen location to see what is used more. Maybe even the SAE QC version.
NG should also be installed to see what works with consumers.

Good idea. Install a couple CHAdeMO stations, high power J1772 stations, a token combo station, lease a couple parking spots to Tesla to let them install a Supercharger...

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:$2M each. How many QCs would that be?

Nissan says it costs about $40k to install a single CHAdeMO station before subsidies, so $2M would install about 40 CHAdeMO stations.
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AndyH
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:14 pm

I've gone back and forth on hydrogen - I've been against it in the past primarily because it's supplied by oil companies from natural gas.

But I don't think it's going away.

Hydrogen storage is one of the 5 pillars of the 'third industrial revolution' plan being implemented by Germany and Denmark singly, and that has been adopted by the EU and UN. Germany has at least one hydrogen storage facility in use now. H2 cars are scheduled for wide-spread release in 2015.

ASPO 2012: Hermann Pengg - Energy storage with Hydrogen and methane - Audi


Jeremy Rifkin: Hydrogen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOn1FkwPjMA

Rifken Talk during Sustainability Conference Oct 13
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14559
Pillar 3 - storage...We at the EU level are in favor of all storage...batteries, flywheels, capacitors, air compressors, water pumping - we like them all. But I must say we put most of the of our focus at the center of all these networks on hydrogen...electrolyzers and fuel cells...


http://technicity.daimler.com/en/jeremyrifkin-2/

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/about-fuel-cells/applications/transport
Fuel cell LDVs [light duty vehicles] have so far seen limited use but this is set to change as most major automakers have targeted 2015 for initial commercial sales of their fuel cell vehicles. Initial locations for this rollout will most likely concentrate around clusters of early hydrogen refuelling infrastructure in Japan, Germany and the USA, and will then spread outwards from these centres as the market is established.


http://www.renewableenergyfocus.com/view/18747/hydrogenics-completes-utility-scale-grid-stabilization-trial-in-ontario-using-hydrogen-electrolyzer/
Canadian hydrogen generation and fuel cell manufacturer Hydrogenics has successfully completed an innovative trial with Ontario’s Independent Electricity System Operator (IESO), to demonstrate the viability of its electrolyzer technology for utility-scale grid stabilization.


http://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/proj_wind_hydrogen.html
NREL, in partnership with Xcel Energy, launched a wind-to-hydrogen (Wind2H2) demonstration project at the National Wind Technology Center in Boulder, Colorado. The Wind2H2 project links wind turbines to electrolyzers, which pass the wind-generated electricity through water to split it into hydrogen and oxygen. The hydrogen can then be stored and used later to generate electricity from an internal combustion engine or a fuel cell.
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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:44 pm

Thanks, great info.

Wind2H2 is something I could support. There can be a lot of excess generation that could be used that way.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



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GRA
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:46 pm

TomT wrote:The big fly in that ointment is that the Prius did not require owners to do anything different than what they had always done... Not so with Hydrogen cars.

Tom, I don't follow your logic here. FCEV operations will be far closer to what owners are used to with ICEVs than BEVs are. 300+ mile range, five minute refueling* at commercial stations, no significant range degradation due to age/use/temperature. FCHVs will give the best of both worlds, but be more expensive.

*Which I'd argue is more important than 300+ mile range, especially on trips.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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LakeLeaf
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:05 pm

It's about one hydrogen fueling station for each hydrogen car currently registered in California

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TomT
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:11 pm

The logic is that the Prius ran on gasoline, was refueled like every other gasoline car, and was treated pretty much the same as any other gasoline car. It simply got better gas mileage and emitted somewhat less pollutants. Drivers and owners did not have to readjust to anything to move from an ICE to the Hybrid. In the case of a Hydrogen vehicle, that is not true. The fuel is different, the fueling process is different, and the refueling station that they have to go to is different, not as plentiful, and in a different location. It requires adjustments that were not necessary with a hybrid. And the incremental price increase over and ICE is likely to be higher than that of a hybrid, even a gen 1 hybrid...

GRA wrote:
TomT wrote:The big fly in that ointment is that the Prius did not require owners to do anything different than what they had always done... Not so with Hydrogen cars.
Tom, I don't follow your logic here.
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AndyH
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:03 pm

TomT wrote:The logic is that the Prius ran on gasoline, was refueled like every other gasoline car, and was treated pretty much the same as any other gasoline car. It simply got better gas mileage and emitted somewhat less pollutants. Drivers and owners did not have to readjust to anything to move from an ICE to the Hybrid. In the case of a Hydrogen vehicle, that is not true. The fuel is different, the fueling process is different, and the refueling station that they have to go to is different, not as plentiful, and in a different location. It requires adjustments that were not necessary with a hybrid. And the incremental price increase over and ICE is likely to be higher than that of a hybrid, even a gen 1 hybrid...

Based on that reasoning, EVs are dead. ;)
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