smkettner
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:14 pm

Honda only leases the Clarity. Will Toyota actually sell their H vehicle?
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
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TomT
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:49 pm

You just love to draw tangential conclusions from unrelated data, don't you? No one was saying that EVs, CNGs, H2s, or Insert-Vehicles-Here were doomed to failure OR destined for greatness. What we WERE discussing is the difference in operational mindset that H2 vehicles require compared to a hybrid...

AndyH wrote:
TomT wrote:The logic is that the Prius ran on gasoline, was refueled like every other gasoline car, and was treated pretty much the same as any other gasoline car. It simply got better gas mileage and emitted somewhat less pollutants. Drivers and owners did not have to readjust to anything to move from an ICE to the Hybrid. In the case of a Hydrogen vehicle, that is not true. The fuel is different, the fueling process is different, and the refueling station that they have to go to is different, not as plentiful, and in a different location. It requires adjustments that were not necessary with a hybrid. And the incremental price increase over and ICE is likely to be higher than that of a hybrid, even a gen 1 hybrid...
Based on that reasoning, EVs are dead. ;)
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

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Nubo
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:23 pm

So who is going to buy a hydrogen car, when the plan is for 100 fueling stations in the entire state of CA, 10 years from now?

I understand the need for range, but this is seriously lacking.

(some) EVs may (currently) have a range issue. But, they by and large are fueled at home, which is far and away more convenient even than the many THOUSANDS of gasoline stations in the state.

A hydrogen car can't be fueled at home. OR at a gasoline station. You have to travel to one of a select few H2 dispensiaries. That is your ONLY way to get around.

Imagine if the only place to get food in California was Der Wienerschnitzel.

Good Grief!

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I noticed you're still working with polymers.

Stoaty
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:52 pm

My prediction: By the time they get those hydrogen vehicles out and get some fueling stations, EV batteries will have progressed to the point that the hydrogen vehicles will be DOA.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/0 ... t-in-2030/
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palmermd
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:37 pm

instead of putting the reformer in the car, just put it next to the tank at this hydrogen station, and then charge a large bank of batteries and then use them to quick charge EV's. Solves some of the demand charge issues at some of the fast charging stations that pull directly from the grid. Should be pretty easy to charge an EV from a large "mother bank" of batteries.
Michael

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:10 am

This might actually have more of a chance than we think. The problem with EV charging stations is there is no business model to support them, so the only ones we get are public works projects and some eco charity cases. Hydrogen on the other hand could be sold along with other fuels just like diesel is at some stations. Remember from a business standpoint motor fuels do not exist to power vehicles, they exist to drive traffic to convenience stores. Hydrogen could also fill that need.
LTL
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[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
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TomT
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:43 am

+1

Stoaty wrote:My prediction: By the time they get those hydrogen vehicles out and get some fueling stations, EV batteries will have progressed to the point that the hydrogen vehicles will be DOA.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

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garygid
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:58 am

The HV will need the 300 mile range, since it might need a fueling
trip, perhaps 50 miles out, and 50 miles back, to get the "fill-up".

With even light traffic, that means about 2 hours and 5 minutes
to fuel up.

Then, there is the 10 acres of parking for the cars
and trucks waiting in line a few hours for fueling.
Of cource, for $2M one should get two fuelling "pumps",
and a Quickie-Mart?

Perhaps not as convenient as some would like you to think.

Follow the money.
Who gets the $200M contract to build these stations,
and who gets the contract to provide the H-fuel?
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
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AndyH
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:40 am

TomT wrote:You just love to draw tangential conclusions from unrelated data, don't you? No one was saying that EVs, CNGs, H2s, or Insert-Vehicles-Here were doomed to failure OR destined for greatness. What we WERE discussing is the difference in operational mindset that H2 vehicles require compared to a hybrid...

AndyH wrote:
TomT wrote:The logic is that the Prius ran on gasoline, was refueled like every other gasoline car, and was treated pretty much the same as any other gasoline car. It simply got better gas mileage and emitted somewhat less pollutants. Drivers and owners did not have to readjust to anything to move from an ICE to the Hybrid. In the case of a Hydrogen vehicle, that is not true. The fuel is different, the fueling process is different, and the refueling station that they have to go to is different, not as plentiful, and in a different location. It requires adjustments that were not necessary with a hybrid. And the incremental price increase over and ICE is likely to be higher than that of a hybrid, even a gen 1 hybrid...
Based on that reasoning, EVs are dead. ;)

I'm well aware of the topic of the conversation, thanks. And I stand by my position on your posturing: If H2 is destined to fail because it's so different from ICE and/or HEV, then clearly BEVs are also destined to fail for the same reasons.

Nothing personal, Tom, but I think you're off the mark on both.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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AndyH
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:04 am

Nubo wrote:So who is going to buy a hydrogen car, when the plan is for 100 fueling stations in the entire state of CA, 10 years from now?

Maybe some; maybe none. But what if the '100 fueling stations' metric is wrong?

Nubo wrote: ... (some) EVs may (currently) have a range issue. But, they by and large are fueled at home, which is far and away more convenient even than the many THOUSANDS of gasoline stations in the state.

A hydrogen car can't be fueled at home. OR at a gasoline station. You have to travel to one of a select few H2 dispensiaries.

This isn't entirely correct even today, as there is equipment on the market now for producing, storing, and dispensing H2 at home in various quantities.

Consider a home with PV on the roof, a hydrolyzer and fuel cell in the back yard. The fuel cell is a combined heat and power unit for the house and possibly EV. The hydrolyzer and/or storage can feed the car. This type of system is in use in Japan, and has been in operation in New Jersey since 2006.
http://hydrogenhouseproject.org/articles.html
Japan:
http://odewire.com/60408/hydrogen-in-every-home.html

Here's one supplier that covers the range from household H2 generation/storage for portable devices (Hydrofill, MiniPak) through the portable, vehicle, and stationary markets:
http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/

edit..fixed links
Last edited by AndyH on Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
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