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TomT
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 7:49 am

We rarely agree on anything so I would be truly surprised if you felt differently...

AndyH wrote:Nothing personal, Tom, but I think you're off the mark on both.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:08 am

How many more H stations will be required to create a viable system?

Say, another thousand? At $2M each! So $2 Billion? Paid for from CA registration fees?
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



6.72 kW Array

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:13 am

$2,000,000,000 would buy 40,000 - 50,000 QCs.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



6.72 kW Array

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:24 am

How much does it cost to install underground gas tanks and dispenser pumps at a regular gas station? It must be in the 100's of thousands, particularly with all the environmental compliance worries (would you even have that with an H2 station?)
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

Smidge204
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:04 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:How much does it cost to install underground gas tanks and dispenser pumps at a regular gas station? It must be in the 100's of thousands, particularly with all the environmental compliance worries (would you even have that with an H2 station?)


The cost to install a normal gas station with 6-8 pumps would be somewhere in the $1-$1.5 million range, not including anything else like a mini-mart or repair shop. Might be hard to believe but all the money is under the asphalt.

Of course, a $1.5M gas station can have a much greater throughput than a CNG/H2 station of comparable cost!

The first CNG station I did had a budget of $1.2M, and that was small... ~2 GPM diesel gallon equivalent in compression capacity and ~240 diesel gallons equivalent storage. Of course you can never fully tap the storage since it works by equalizing pressure with the vehicle, so it can only refuel one large truck or bus every ~20-30 min. Turns out compressing gas to 4000PSI is hard work!

I reckon hydrogen would be about the same provided the H2 gas supply doesn't add an additional bottleneck.
=Smidge=

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TomT
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:38 am

Therein lays the problem with home CNG... The compressors are expensive and fairly maintenance intensive...

Smidge204 wrote:Turns out compressing gas to 4000PSI is hard work!
Last edited by TomT on Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:22 am

Smidge204 wrote:Of course, a $1.5M gas station can have a much greater throughput than a CNG/H2 station of comparable cost!

Still if you can get people using them buying the fuel at a price that offsets the cost of delivery, and the traditional 26% of drivers go into the C-store why wouldn't it be viable? The problem is getting enough station owners to think it's worth the investment. Couldn't the state get more bang for it's buck with a subsidy or private/public partnership of some kind with station owners?
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

smkettner
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:45 am

Are these stations self serve or do they also need staffing 16 hours a day seven days a week?
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
I-Pace on order for end of 2018 delivery

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DNAinaGoodWay
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:47 am

The article states that Tesla was a supporter.

Planning a FCEV themselves?
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



6.72 kW Array

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Nubo
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Re: California to get Hydrogen stations - and consumers to p

Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:26 pm

AndyH wrote:
Nubo wrote:A hydrogen car can't be fueled at home. OR at a gasoline station. You have to travel to one of a select few H2 dispensiaries.

This isn't entirely correct even today, as there is equipment on the market now for producing, storing, and dispensing H2 at home in various quantities.

Consider a home with PV on the roof, a hydrolyzer and fuel cell in the back yard. The fuel cell is a combined heat and power unit for the house and possibly EV. The hydrolyzer and/or storage can feed the car. This type of system is in use in Japan, and has been in operation in New Jersey since 2006.


I'm not opposed to that; Hydrogen as an energy storage medium holds promise -- IF being used to store clean energy. My fear is that the "hydrogen economy" will be largely a way for petro companies to repackage their fossil fuels.

However, what is the capital outlay for a PV system, hydrolyzer, fuel cell, and H2 compression and storage, all sufficient to fuel a vehicle? I don't see this going mainstream quickly, even if it works well and deals with H2 generation losses, density and diffusion properties. It's far cry from plugging in an EV.

Motorists value convenience above all. That's the one strong suit of EVs that can overcome some of the trepidation and "range anxiety". Word of mouth about how convenient they really are to own and drive. I see H2 taking quite some time before it compares to the convenience level of EVs, or conversely the "drive anywhere at a moments notice" siren song of gasoline. Just doesn't seem to hit either note.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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