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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:10 pm
by smkettner
I would like to know how many of those FCEVs were sold (leased) to employees and related parties at a steep discount.
Secondly I would like to know how many actually buy out the lease and start paying out of pocket for H2.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:19 pm
by cwerdna
smkettner wrote:I would like to know how many of those FCEVs were sold (leased) to employees and related parties at a steep discount.

I wonder, as well. I work for a company that has nothing to do w/automotive and I've seen at least 1 Mirai in the parking lot. It helps that there's an H2 station just down the street. I've sometimes seen other Mirais fueling up there.

There's at least 1 Mirai on a street connected to mine at home. Silicon Valley isn't the center of large offices for automakers but many of them have small research offices in the Bay Area.

I've seen at least one other Mirai running around kinda in my area, near home.

I don't know any of the drivers.
smkettner wrote:Secondly I would like to know how many actually buy out the lease and start paying out of pocket for H2.

Probably very few, unless the cars are heavily discounted and there's some large fuel subsidy/discount.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:05 pm
by TonyWilliams
cwerdna wrote:
smkettner wrote:Secondly I would like to know how many actually buy out the lease and start paying out of pocket for H2.

Probably very few, unless the cars are heavily discounted and there's some large fuel subsidy/discount.


We know the answer to that... virtually none.

But, many will likely lease another H2 powered car with free or otherwise heavily discounted H2 refueling costs.

So, what happens to the lease return? It probably gets crushed. There just isn’t a market for any car that requires fuel that is far more expensive than electricity, natural gas, propane, gasoline or diesel.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:04 pm
by GetOffYourGas
GRA wrote:
According to Jaffery, a respectable hydrogen fueling ecosystem will not be ready until 2020. The slow buildout of the hydrogen stations has given an opening to battery electric vehicles whose sales are rapidly gaining ground.


I had to chuckle at this one. Yeah, that's it - BEVs were only given an opening because of the slow buildout of hydrogen stations. Laughable.

RegGuheert wrote:
By 2021, at least 11 automakers will have rolled out hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, including Toyota, Lexus, Hyundai, Kia, Honda, Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Other entrants in this space include Tata Motors, Pininfarina S.p.A. (owned by Mahindra & Mahindra) Riversimple and the RONN Motor Group.
Look for these companies to fall far behind those who are embracing BEVs today. Some will likely never recover.

I agree with your sentiment, but disagree with your list, particularly BMW. They are one of the definitive leaders in PHEVs and BEVs.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:17 pm
by TonyWilliams
http://abc7.com/hydrogen-tank-explosion ... s/3068078/

What could go wrong with millions of hydrogen tanks, all pressurized to 10,000psi, in dense environments?

This hydrogen fire in a truck resulted in 500 people being evacuated.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:01 am
by RegGuheert
GetOffYourGas wrote:
GRA wrote:
According to Jaffery, a respectable hydrogen fueling ecosystem will not be ready until 2020. The slow buildout of the hydrogen stations has given an opening to battery electric vehicles whose sales are rapidly gaining ground.

I had to chuckle at this one. Yeah, that's it - BEVs were only given an opening because of the slow buildout of hydrogen stations. Laughable.
For another expert's opinion on this subject, here's an excellent speech by Mate Rimac:



At the end of his speech, he was asked about hydrogen cars:
Audience member at 35:35 wrote:Hello Mate, and thank you for a great lecture. Uh, one question: Uh, Toyota just announced with this model, Mirai, uh, hybrid revolution, uh, the hydrogen revolution. What do you think about it?
Mate Rimac wrote:Um, there will be many transition, uh, solutions in the next decade or two decades. Uh, hybrids, plug-ins, um, range-extended vehicles, uh, hydrogen vehicles, which are electric cars with, uh, on-board generators. Um, there will be electric cars with hybrid, uh, with hydrogen range extenders. There will by hydrogen-burning internal combustion engine cars. There will be, um, fuel made out of algae, or out of biomass, or artificially-created, uh, fuel. Um.

But the end solution is electric. 'Cause it's just efficient. So you have a powerplant which is efficient. Or you have, um, I don't know, uh, wind farms, uh, or solar panels or whatever, and, uh, the best way to get that energy where it's generated into transportation is just electric.

Uh, hydrogen cars are nothing more than electric cars with a different storage system instead of batteries. Which are now maybe comparable to batteries, but as batteries improve, the other forms of transportation will have less-and-less sense. So I think, even today, hydrogen makes really no sense. It's just an engineering exercise. And as the batteries advance, the solution will be clearer and clearer. So I think that there is no way, there is no sense for any other forms of energy storage inside the car. Except, I don't know, if you manage to, to shrink down a cold fusion, so that it could fit into a car. But, otherwise, battery-electric vehicles are the only sensible choice.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:01 pm
by GRA
TonyWilliams wrote:http://abc7.com/hydrogen-tank-explosion-on-semi-truck-prompts-evacuations/3068078/

What could go wrong with millions of hydrogen tanks, all pressurized to 10,000psi, in dense environments?

This hydrogen fire in a truck resulted in 500 people being evacuated.

Horrors, that sort of thing's never happened with any other fuel or energy source: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=17145&p=519172#p519172

There's plenty of good reasons to believe that H2 and FCEVs will never be commercially successful, but the implication that H2's a uniquely hazardous fuel is not one of them.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:04 pm
by GRA
Via GCC:
DEWA and Siemens sign MoU for MW-scale solar-drive electrolysis pilot project for hydrogen production
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/02/20180213-dewa.html

Dubai Electricity and Water Authority (DEWA) and Siemens have signed a memorandum of understanding ( MoU) to kick-off a pilot project for the region’s first solar-driven electrolysis facility to produce hydrogen at DEWA’s outdoor testing facilities at the Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum Solar Park. . . .

DEWA and Expo 2020 Dubai intend to use fuel-cell vehicles powered by the green hydrogen generated at the facility.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:22 pm
by RegGuheert
GRA wrote:There's plenty of good reasons to believe that H2 and FCEVs will never be commercially successful, but the implication that H2's a uniquely hazardous fuel is not one of them.
Perhaps it is not uniquely hazardous. It is just hazardous. The transportation of electricity is MUCH safer than the transportation of hydrogen. We have Nikola Tesla largely to thank for that!

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:01 pm
by GRA
RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:There's plenty of good reasons to believe that H2 and FCEVs will never be commercially successful, but the implication that H2's a uniquely hazardous fuel is not one of them.
Perhaps it is not uniquely hazardous. It is just hazardous. The transportation of electricity is MUCH safer than the transportation of hydrogen.

Safer sure, but still hazardous, as the people who used to live in Santa Rosa before their houses burned down owing to fires which at least in some cases apparently started due to lack of tree trimming near power lines are aware (investigations still underway, but PG&E is already worried and the legal vultures have already begun circling, with ads on TV trolling for customers): http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/7935333-181/sonoma-county-to-sue-pge

Or the next of kin of various fatal air crashes which were due to fires caused by thermal runaway of Li-ion batteries, and which led to them being banned from being carried in bulk on passenger a/c (which didn't stop several fatal fires from happening on cargo a/c): https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20160209.aspx

Hazmat is just that. Back in my Teamster days we had to take hazmat compatibility training and get certified for this, and anytime there was the slightest question of whether or not two different substances were compatible we'd check, because otherwise you may have to unload a trailer and remove one or more of them - the fines are steep if you are in violation, for a very good reason: http://www.otrain.com/OTI_MSDS(DOT)HM-SEG_TABLE.html

I've seen a few people sickened or injured because of improper loads or improper placarding, and most of us were damned careful with anything that could harm us.