GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:01 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:Of course, FCEVs can also supplied by H2 coupled with PV or wind to produce it when they are in excess, as is being done, e.g. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/06/20180622-hyseas.html

http://greenhydrogen.dk/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Hydrogen-in-Rennerod-press-release-1.pdf
Of course it's a very dumb idea to throw away 2/3 of that "excess". A much better idea is to keep nearly all of that excess and charge BEVs or other batteries instead.

As long as you don't have any more excess than you can use immediately for charging. But if you need to store it for a week, month or more, it's a different matter, and will remain so as long as mass storage by battery remains expensive.

[Edit] Reading down to the next post, I see WetEV made the same point. That's what I get for not reading all the posts before replying.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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SageBrush
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:44 pm

WetEV wrote:This is the last 10% problem in renewable energy. It is going to be more expensive than the first 90%, might even be far more expensive and inefficient. As long as it works, and the total cost isn't outrageous...
It will never pan out as a back-up; it is just too expensive. A mix of a more inter-connected grid, pumped hydro, batteries and solar thermal have it beat by a country mile. And for that last 1% ? Use NG for all I care.
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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:31 am

WetEV wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:A much better idea is to keep nearly all of that excess and charge BEVs or other batteries instead.
True until you get to beyond a week or more of storage. MIGHT not be true for the last bit, needed for seasonal shifting and such. The cost of energy from batteries rises the slower they are cycled, storing hydrogen (or perhaps some compound such as methanol produced from hydrogen) is less costly.
Agreed.

I will say that since we are endeavoring to transition transportation away from fossil fuels toward electric drive, we should be putting "excess" generation into electric vehicles first. The reason is simple: fossil fuels are easier to store than hydrogen and electric vehicles are much more efficient for storing electricity than hydrogen, so storing energy as hydrogen should be delayed until it actually makes sense.
WetEV wrote:If there is a point to fuel cells in vehicles, it is probably mostly in aviation. More likely in fixed fuel cells to provide season shifting.

This is the last 10% problem in renewable energy. It is going to be more expensive than the first 90%, might even be far more expensive and inefficient. As long as it works, and the total cost isn't outrageous...
Exactly. Let's not shoehorn hydrogen into applications where it is impeding the progress of this transition rather than helping.
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RegGuheert
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:45 am

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:This is the last 10% problem in renewable energy. It is going to be more expensive than the first 90%, might even be far more expensive and inefficient. As long as it works, and the total cost isn't outrageous...
It will never pan out as a back-up; it is just too expensive.
I'm not sure about that. The material costs of batteries quickly outstrip the costs of fuel-cell storage at rather quickly as storage time increases.
SageBrush wrote:A mix of a more inter-connected grid, pumped hydro, batteries and solar thermal have it beat by a country mile. And for that last 1% ? Use NG for all I care.
I'm all for pumped hydro, but it is not a viable solution in places like Florida. That's why touting successes like in Norway and Portugal only get us so far.

Likewise there are limits to the interconnected grid approach. It can be extremely expensive and at the end of the day, there are times when there is nearly zero renewable energy being generated over the entire grid. This happens in Europe fairly regularly.

And, frankly, I think hydrogen will have a larger role in our future than solar thermal. Simply put, I do not think solar thermal plants can compete with solid-state technologies such as PV. We'll see.

At the end of the day, I DO like the approach of putting hydrogen into natural gas pipelines, as Germany is beginning to do. One reason I like that approach is that it can leverage much existing infrastructure (both pipelines and gas turbines) to assist in the transition. At the same time, I think we need to implement the higher-efficiency portions of the solution first, including things you have mentioned like pumped hydro, grid improvements, but also things like daytime BEV charging (using BEV net metering) and ARES.

In short, my position on hydrogen is this: keep doing the research but stop diverting subsidies from BEVs to things like H2 FCEVs. That is just slowing down progress toward a more-sustainable solution.
RegGuheert
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10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:54 am

GRA wrote:This could be a real game-changer, via GCC:
Army researchers develop novel nanogalvanic alloys for on-demand hydrogen generation; plans to license
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/06/20180624-arl.html
This does look interesting, especially for military applications. My question about this type of claim is this: Where does the energy come from to separate the H2 from the O2 and how much of that energy is wasted in the process? After all, H2 is useful as a fuel ONLY after it has been raised to a higher energy state than when it is combined with O2 in water.
RegGuheert
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10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
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SageBrush
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:03 am

RegGuheert wrote:I'm all for pumped hydro, but it is not a viable solution in places like Florida.

Florida is not on my radar. It is just a flooded swamp waiting for the ocean to reclaim it.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:22 am

GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:...Of course it's a very dumb idea to throw away 2/3 of that "excess". A much better idea is to keep nearly all of that excess and charge BEVs or other batteries instead.

As long as you don't have any more excess than you can use immediately for charging...

RegGuheert wrote:... The material costs of batteries quickly outstrip the costs of fuel-cell storage at rather quickly as storage time increases...

What you both seem to be overlooking is that as BEVs replace ICEVs, there will be an ever-increasing supply of inexpensive used cells that have second-life applications in stationary storage installations.

And as new battery costs per kWh continue to fall, used battery prices will probably soon reach very low prices per kWh.

Every significant BEV manufacturer world-wide (except TSLA, for obvious reasons) has already begun repurposing programs for their used packs.

Meaning large-scale hydrogen conversion of electricity for energy storage, is nearly certain to wind up as just another economically non-competitive pipe dream from the Hydrogen lobby.
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:43 am

edatoakrun wrote:What you both seem to be overlooking is that as BEVs replace ICEVs, there will be an ever-increasing supply of inexpensive used cells that have second-life applications in stationary storage installations.

And as new battery costs per kWh continue to fall, used battery prices will probably soon reach very low prices per kWh.
Here’s hoping that eventually happens in meaningful quantities!
edatoakrun wrote:Meaning large-scale hydrogen conversion of electricity for energy storage, is nearly certain to wind up as just another economically non-competitive pipe dream from the Hydrogen lobby.
What many (not you) fail to realize is that ramping up renewable electricity production to the levels needed to transition to BEV-based transportation will be no minor feat. But the amount of electricity required if we plan to hydrolyze a significant amount of water in order to access the H2 will be significantly higher, meaning that simply will not happen.

This problem is most acute in places like Germany where the renewable resources are extremely limited, especially in wintertime. Texas is much better suited to make a full transition to renewables than is Germany, regardless of the level of resolve by politicians to spend OPM.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
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SageBrush
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:10 pm

RegGuheert wrote:This problem is most acute in places like Germany where the renewable resources are extremely limited, especially in wintertime. Texas is much better suited to make a full transition to renewables than is Germany, regardless of the level of resolve by politicians to spend OPM.
That is not a fair characterization for Germany beyond solar, and it does not take into account load/generation mismatch.

However, I certainly agree that hydrogen appears brain-dead on many levels.
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:23 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:What you both seem to be overlooking is that as BEVs replace ICEVs, there will be an ever-increasing supply of inexpensive used cells that have second-life applications in stationary storage installations.

And as new battery costs per kWh continue to fall, used battery prices will probably soon reach very low prices per kWh.
Here’s hoping that eventually happens in meaningful quantities!
edatoakrun wrote:Meaning large-scale hydrogen conversion of electricity for energy storage, is nearly certain to wind up as just another economically non-competitive pipe dream from the Hydrogen lobby.
What many (not you) fail to realize is that ramping up renewable electricity production to the levels needed to transition to BEV-based transportation will be no minor feat. But the amount of electricity required if we plan to hydrolyze a significant amount of water in order to access the H2 will be significantly higher, meaning that simply will not happen.

This problem is most acute in places like Germany where the renewable resources are extremely limited, especially in wintertime. Texas is much better suited to make a full transition to renewables than is Germany, regardless of the level of resolve by politicians to spend OPM.

When you say extremely limited, what are your standards? Germany is already generating over 1/3rd (36.1% in 2017) of their electricity from renewables, with more to come: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany PV resources are obviously less than Texas, but the Baltic has good to excellent wind, and they're already shifting from on to offshore farms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany

They've also got a lot of biomass, some hydro, and are increasing geothermal thanks to govt. incentives.
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