WetEV
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:52 pm

GRA wrote:Add to that that FCEVs are currently expensive due to production limitations


You forgot that the fuel for FCEVs is more expensive than for BEVs. Renewable hydrogen is more than 3 times the cost of renewable electric power for the BEV. That is unlikely to change, unless someone gets to change the physics. Hydrogen is a battery, and not a very good one for automotive use.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:06 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:Add to that that FCEVs are currently expensive due to production limitations

You forgot that the fuel for FCEVs is more expensive than for BEVs. Renewable hydrogen is more than 3 times the cost of renewable electric power for the BEV. That is unlikely to change, unless someone gets to change the physics. Hydrogen is a battery, and not a very good one for automotive use.

No, I haven't forgotten it, I've pointed out numerous times, including in extended discussions with you, that everyone involved understands that price is an issue, talked about current prices and production methods, price goals, etc. I've said many times that the price of (sustainable) H2 must be reduced to equal or less than gas if it is to be commercially viable, provided numerous links to articles about just how people are trying to do that (e.g. the Australian report I linked up a few posts discusses current and projected costs and methods), etc. To repeat, for FCEVs/H2 to be commercially viable, they must reduce the costs of:

    The fuel cell stacks and BoS

    Sustainably-produced H2

    H2 fueling infrastructure

To which I'd add reducing/eliminating costs of compression, transport and storage are all nice to haves, but the big three are as listed, and while all three have improved a lot none are yet where they need to be commercially viable, nor are they guaranteed to reach the levels needed.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:47 pm

GRA wrote:I've said many times that the price of (sustainable) H2 must be reduced to equal or less than gas if it is to be commercially viable,


Once again, you shift the subject from hydrogen being far more expensive than renewable electric power to hydrogen becoming cheaper than gasoline.

As there are limits to how much fossil fuel can be used, at some point in the future the price of the gasoline will be higher than all the renewable alternatives. So?

I pay about $1 per gasoline gallon equivalent for renewable electric power today. Sometime in the far future, renewable hydrogen might make it down to $3 per gasoline gallon equivalent. Current price is more like $15 per GGE.

Next, you are going to bring up the "surplus solar and wind energy" dodge, so remember to mention that BEVs can do that as well. If solar mid day is basically free, then so is the fuel for my BEV most of the days. And seasonal shifting with fixed fuel cells is likely to be cheaper than fuel cells in cars. BEV wins again.
WetEV
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Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:25 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:I've said many times that the price of (sustainable) H2 must be reduced to equal or less than gas if it is to be commercially viable,

Once again, you shift the subject from hydrogen being far more expensive than renewable electric power to hydrogen becoming cheaper than gasoline.

Because that's what I (and the people working with H2) consider is necessary for commercial success, and the relative sales of ICEs vs. BEVs show that to be the case. Electricity is cheaper than gas now many places, so if that were the controlling factor everyone would be voluntarily shifting to BEVs en masse with no subsidies.

WetEV wrote:As there are limits to how much fossil fuel can be used, at some point in the future the price of the gasoline will be higher than all the renewable alternatives. So?

I pay about $1 per gasoline gallon equivalent for renewable electric power today. Sometime in the far future, renewable hydrogen might make it down to $3 per gasoline gallon equivalent. Current price is more like $15 per GGE.

No it isn't. Average price in California is around $15/kg. (Air Products is charging $9.99/kg. at their stations) which at the moment is largely made up of fossil-fuel sourced H2 made via SMR. There will soon be a large renewable H2 production facility under construction here using bio-waste, and there's six stations using on-site electrolysis (the most expensive method, as you'd expect) . As the FCEV sedans are getting 65+ MPGe now, and the typical comparable conventional ICE sedan gets about 30 or so, $15/kg. at the moment is less than half that on a gge basis. Comparing to HEVs it's a lot closer, as the best (Ioniq) gets 58 mpg combined, while the best current FCEV (Clarity) gets 68 combined, or a 17% advantage. But HEVs make up only a small % of the fleet, so the real market that has to be conquered remains conventional ICEs. Remember the DoE ultimate H2 goal is $4/kg, and at $7/kg they consider it $3.50 or less gge, which is below the average price of gas in California at the moment. For more detail on renewable H2 costs, methods and issues, see the report I had linked upthread:
Renewable
Hydrogen
Roadmap
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/58e8f58d20099ea6eb9ab918/t/5afd25a9f950b7543abe21ba/1526539702668/EIN_RH2_Paper_Lowres.pdf

in particular Figure 11 which shows (current) costs of H2 production by the various methods, and Figure 12 which shows current costs of compression, storage and delivery (CSD).

WetEV wrote:Next, you are going to bring up the "surplus solar and wind energy" dodge, so remember to mention that BEVs can do that as well. If solar mid day is basically free, then so is the fuel for my BEV most of the days. And seasonal shifting with fixed fuel cells is likely to be cheaper than fuel cells in cars. BEV wins again.

The 'dodge' is that until mass battery storage becomes affordable, you simply can't afford to store electricity for weeks or months, just hours or maybe a few days. As the wind and sun may not be available for periods much longer than that, I have no problem whatsoever with fixed fuel cells as well, indeed (as mentioned) I believe we'll need multiple approaches t achieve the transition from fossil fuels as quickly as possible. BEVs are great (for local/regional use at the moment) where you've got a guaranteed place to plug-in, and lousy otherwise. Since most drivers world-wide won't have that for decades while the charging infrastructure is built, a mix of other approaches will be necessary. At the moment, I believe that means HEV/PHEV/BEV, with FCHEVs/H2 and bio-fuels bringing up the rear. And now, as we've repeated our usual argument yet again, it's time to let it rest there, and return to new developments/deployments (see next post).
Last edited by GRA on Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:46 pm

Via GCC:
Asahi Kasei to install 10 MW alkaline water electrolysis system in Japan; H2 from renewable energy
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/08/20180827-ak.html

Asahi Kasei and its subsidiary Asahi Kasei Engineering Corp. have received an order from Toshiba Energy Systems & Solutions Corp. for a 10 MW alkaline water electrolysis system in a single unit to be installed at the Fukushima Hydrogen Research Field in Namie, Futaba, Fukushima, Japan.

Development of the large-scale alkaline water electrolysis system featuring high energy efficiency and outstanding responsiveness with fluctuating output was achieved based on Asahi Kasei’s chlor-alkali electrolysis technology, with the support of Japan’s New Energy and Industrial Technology Development Organization (NEDO). . . .

Integrated with a large-scale solar power generation plant, the electrolysis system will form a core part of the Fukushima Hydrogen Research Field scheduled for test operation in the autumn of 2019 and start-up in the summer of 2020.

Asahi Kasei’s alkaline water electrolysis system is an example of “power-to-gas” technology to convert renewable energy into clean hydrogen which is expected to be utilized in transportation and industrial applications as a substitute for fossil fuel.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9093
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:39 pm

Both via GCC:
Team from Daimler, ZBT, Jülich finds impact of air pollution on fuel cell power and lifetime “significant”
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/08/20180830-talke.html

. . . A team from Daimler, ZBT GmbH and Forschungszentrum Jülich has now systematically analyzed the influence of NO, NO2, NH3 and SO2 on automobile fuel cells under realistic conditions. In total, more than 12 fuel cell stacks accumulated a total of more than 2500 h with four air contaminants. In a paper in Journal of Power Sources, the researchers report that the negative affects can be significant.

Among their findings were that spontaneous power losses of about 5% and more than 10% in special situations from NOx can be expected for fuel cell vehicles in urban areas. NH3 will lead to a spontaneous power loss of less than 3%, but causes a progressive irreversible damage, shortening lifetime. . . .

For the study, they used two different types of fuel cells—high and a low platinum loading—in automobile short stacks with ten cells each. Four stacks were always tested in parallel in a four-stack test bench to ensure best comparability of the results.

The operating conditions were selected in such a way as to be in the range of the conditions used in fuel cell vehicles.

First, four stacks were tested for more than 1500 h in a semi-dynamic way with different air contaminants. In these tests, only one of the relevant operating parameters such as the temperature or the pressure was dynamically varied while the other parameters were fixed at a medium level.

In a second set of tests, a real driving cycle gained from an existing course near Stuttgart, Germany was used to create full-dynamic tests. Four stacks of high-platinum-load fuel cells were tested for 365 h; four stacks of the low-load type were tested for another 716 h.

    In summary the present study therefore combines fuel cell tests under automotive conditions, long testing times and real contaminant concentration measurements on the streets for the first time. By combination it could be shown, that all tested pollutants—NO, NO2, SO2 and particularly NH3 will have a significant negative influence on fuel cell vehicles in Germany. It may also be assumed that other pollutants, such as hydrocarbons, have a negative influence on fuel cell vehicles, too. For this reason further research and development regarding suitable filters and operating strategies against the negative influence of air contaminants are suggested.

    —Talke et al.

The abstract for the original study (full study is behind a paywall) includes a graph showing degradation due to NH3: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0378775318309224-fx1_lrg.jpg


Ballard enters strategic partnership with Weichai Power; 19.9% stake in Ballard and new JV; fuel cell commercial vehicles
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/08/20180830-ballard.html

Ballard Power Systems has entered into a strategic collaboration with Weichai Power Co., Ltd. which includes:

    A substantial equity investment by Weichai in Ballard of approximately $163 million, representing a 19.9% interest in the company and reflecting a price based on a 15% premium to the 30-day VWAP;

    Establishment of a joint venture (JV) to support China’s burgeoning Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) market;

    A $90-million technology transfer program to the JV related to Ballard’s next-generation LCS fuel cell stack and power modules for bus, commercial truck and forklift applications in China; and

    a commitment by Weichai to build and supply at least 2,000 fuel cell modules for commercial vehicles in China. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:37 pm

Via GCC:
Hydrogen Council quadruples size in 18 months
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/09/20180905-hc.html

The Hydrogen Council, a global CEO coalition for hydrogen technologies, is welcoming an additional 14 members, a second major wave of growth this year. Eight companies are joining the group at steering member level: Airbus, Air Products, Cummins, EDF, Johnson Matthey, KOGAS, SINOPEC and thyssenkrupp, alongside six new members at supporting level: AFC Energy, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd., Re-Fire Technology, Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corporation, Sumitomo Corporation, and Southern California Gas. In addition, Faurecia is upgrading its membership to steering level.

As a result, the Hydrogen Council now brings together 53 leading companies, accounting for 3.8 million jobs and €1.8 trillion in revenue from across 11 different countries. The group has more than quadrupled in size since launching at the World Economic Forum just 18 months ago.

The announcement comes ahead of the Council’s next annual CEO meeting that will take place during the Global Climate Action Summit (GCAS) in San Francisco, USA next week. The meeting will see C-suite leaders of Council member companies come together for a day of strategic discussions, action planning and engagement with stakeholders, all geared towards delivering on a joint vision of hydrogen averting 6 Gt of CO2 emissions, creating a $2.5-trillion market and providing employment for more than 30 million people by mid-century. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9093
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:01 pm

Via GCC, one of my occasional posts linking to articles describing current H2 and FCEV research. As always, lab results don't guarantee commercialization, and any such result would be years away in any case. SQL errors prevent me posting quotes:
INL team develops new electrode for efficient steam electrolysis at reduced temperatures
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/09/20180905-inl.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9093
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:35 pm

Via GCC:
ARENA awards A$22.1M to 16 projects to accelerate exporting renewable hydrogen
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/09/20180907-arena.html

On behalf of the Australian Government, the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) awarded A$22.1 million (US$16 million) in funding to 16 research projects to propel innovation in exporting renewable hydrogen. . . .

Funding recipients are:

Australian National University (ANU) Hydrogen Generation by Electro-Catalytic Systems – $615,682

ANU Direct Water Electrolysis – $1,235,407

ANU Solar Hydrogen Generation – $1,637,303

CSIRO Solar Thermochemical Hydrogen – $2,007,676

CSIRO Hydrogen to Ammonia – $1,175,000

CSIRO Methane Fuel Carrier – $1,085,553

CSIRO Liquid Fuel Carrier – $1,010,021

Macquarie University biological hydrogen production using genetically engineered microorganisms – $1,148,455

Monash University low-cost robust, high-activity water splitting electrodes – $1,054,209

Monash ammonia production from renewables at ambient temperature and pressure. Developing a process for reduction of nitrogen to ammonia – $915,848

Queensland University of Technology (QUT) Hydrogen Process – $3,350,000

RMIT University proton flow reactor system for electrical energy storage and bulk export of hydrogenated carbon-based material – $805,026

The University of Melbourne (UOM) enabling efficient, affordable and robust use of renewable hydrogen in transport and power generation – $2,594,747

University of New South Wales (UNSW) highly efficient and low cost photovoltaic-electrolysis (PVE) system to generate hydrogen by harvesting the full spectrum of sunlight – $1,319,105

UNSW Waste to Biomass to Renewable Hydrogen – $1,045,770

The University of Western Australia (UWA) Methanol from Syngas – $1,079,875
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9093
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:25 pm

Via GCC:
Air Liquide inaugurates HyBalance pilot site in Denmark for production of carbon-free hydrogen
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/09/20180908-hybalance.html

. . . The facility uses electrolysis technology to balance the electricity grid and to store surplus electricity in the form of hydrogen that will be used in industry and transportation.

This project, initiated in 2016, is led by Air Liquide with funding from the European public-private partnership Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (FCH JU) and the support of the Danish EUDP (Energy Technology Development and Demonstration Program).

As part of this project, Air Liquide developed, built, and is operating the facility that produces hydrogen from water electrolysis as well as the filling center for its customers delivered by trailers.

The electrolyzer, with a capacity of 1.2 MW, enables the production of around 500 kg of hydrogen a day without releasing CO2. Besides industrial customers, the hydrogen that is produced is used to supply the network of five hydrogen stations installed and operated by the Copenhagen Hydrogen Network (CHN), a subsidiary of Air Liquide in Denmark.

Denmark is a pioneer in the integration of renewable energies into the national energy mix, with 40% of the country’s electricity produced from wind turbines. By compensating for renewable energy intermittency, hydrogen offers a solution for storing surplus electricity to meet the challenges posed by the energy transition. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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